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Re: The EV thread

Reply #60 –
Does an ammonia powered car potentially run off urine?  😄

Jokes aside kruddler the first car of this type would be 5 plus years away.  At least one financed vehicle cycle away.

It shouldn't change what you do today.  I imagine that there will be am initiative to help get the last ICE car holders onto the next platform if it's required.  I also think that as petrol and diesel demand wanes the price of it here will drop, as the demand for it does unless they restrict supply to keep the price of it buoyant.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: The EV thread

Reply #61 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Does an ammonia powered car potentially run off urine?  😄

Jokes aside kruddler the first car of this type would be 5 plus years away.  At least one financed vehicle cycle away.

It shouldn't change what you do today.  I imagine that there will be am initiative to help get the last ICE car holders onto the next platform if it's required.  I also think that as petrol and diesel demand wanes the price of it here will drop, as the demand for it does unless they restrict supply to keep the price of it buoyant.

Nah i know its years away, i'm just hoping for some certainty in the future, whichever way it goes.

I think i've settled on the diesel Everest and i'll deal with the consequences later.

My worry is that cars depreciate in value enough as it is, i don't want something to depreciate to the point its just worth scrap, simply because new tech has made it obsolete almost overnight. As i said, i'm thinking 6+years into the future which is how long i expect to have this new car

Re: The EV thread

Reply #62 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Nah i know its years away, i'm just hoping for some certainty in the future, whichever way it goes.

I think i've settled on the diesel Everest and i'll deal with the consequences later.

My worry is that cars depreciate in value enough as it is, i don't want something to depreciate to the point its just worth scrap, simply because new tech has made it obsolete almost overnight. As i said, i'm thinking 6+years into the future which is how long i expect to have this new car
thats fair.

I dont worry too much about the future value.  I've only owned a few cars.  I'm 41 and been driving my diesel mondeo since 2008 when I got it new.  Previous cars were second handers.

The mondeo isn't unreliable but it's time for it to go shortly.  It's worth what it's worth and I'm going to trade it in because private selling is annoying and time consuming and usually it's not worth the hassle. 

The next car, depreciation is what it is.  It might not go the distance anyway.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: The EV thread

Reply #63 –
It's a great technology but as far as I can tell, ammonia is likely to be just another interim step to hydrogen.

Actually, ammonia is proposed as a transport medium for hydrogen, and in this regard the ammonia engine is really just delivering hydrogen power without the need to split hydrogen from the ammonia carrier as the pre-cursor process. Ammonia is easy to produce and transport, but once large scale hydrogen production gets underway ammonia will also become redundant, there will be no point consuming energy to create ammonia as the intermediate process from something like hydrogen sourced from seawater.

Perhaps ammonia is a great interim process for the hydrogen from coal process, which has some merit as an interim technology. I believe the Japanese are heavy into R&D in this regard, and that makes sense because they are an island nation dependant on imported energy resources. No one solution fits everybody.

FWIW, there is some rather silly opposition to ammonia and hydrogen on the basis of releasing nitrogen, nitrogen that makes up almost 70% of our atmosphere is apparently now a bad greenhouse gas! ::) The stupidity of that claim is even worse when you learn that the bulk of the nitrogen used in the production of the ammonia is drawn from the atmosphere. It's a circular process. The production of ammonia requires a green no carbon energy source like the sun, nuclear or geothermal to run. The big problem is that the public as a whole is rather stupid, and believe claims designed to oppose one green technology against the other.

Currently they use energy and resources to create ammonia that are not 100% carbon emissions free, which is why they only rate ammonia engines at up to about 90% carbon emissions free. Could it get to 100%, I don't think so because in real world scenarios there are no zero waste procedures.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The EV thread

Reply #64 –
Quote from: LP – on
The big problem is that the public as a whole is rather stupid
This is where governments are failing.

Take away from the first step of constant slashing from the education sector first, as thats a long term solution that is already overdue.

What they need to do is educate everybody as a whole into the hows and whys of science as a whole what everything means and what are the overall pros and cons of going down each particular path. Not just in terms of long term transportation, but energy as a whole.

Australia is largely seen as a smart country with brilliant advances coming from our residents.
However, that is an elite group of people driving that. The majority of us, don't have enough understanding of how basic scientific concepts work. How basic mathematical modelling works and how to interpret data correctly. Majority of people reduce some of the most complex simulations in the world to whatever their favourite youtuber puts out as a sound bite. "Dont forget to like and subscribe" is about the most annoying phrase i've ever heard, and i hear it dozens of times a week courtesy of my kids watching youtube non-stop.

Re: The EV thread

Reply #65 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
This is where governments are failing.
Governments fail because Politicians want to back a winner in a sprint race, and we've a Parliament full of lawyers who have no idea on the technology side of the debate, and almost zero interest in the long term.

Instead we need engineers or scientists, the UK is just starting to correct this at the moment, we need to do more here and faster. But we have to get the engineers and scientists up to speed on dealing with the public.

Over and over again I've witnessed Australian developed technologies fail to commercialise here, only to then head off-shore and become big things a decade later with the proceeds lost to our country. The concept of a loss leader is completely foreign to our small minded politicians, they seem completely ignorant of global scale.

I think we make a mistake keeping them at arms length to investments, maybe we need to do the exact opposite and become like Germany were both politicians and employees profit from technology developments. They can actually take a vested interest in the projects they manage, it changes the dynamic.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The EV thread

Reply #66 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
"Dont forget to like and subscribe" is about the most annoying phrase i've ever heard, and i hear it dozens of times a week courtesy of my kids watching youtube non-stop.
Krudd - can't blame the government for this. Parents are also responsible for education and what kids do during spare time.  Certainly not having a go at you or your parenting!

Re: The EV thread

Reply #67 –
Quote from: dodge – on
Krudd - can't blame the government for this. Parents are also responsible for education and what kids do during spare time.  Certainly not having a go at you or your parenting!

Believe me, i try and limit youtube and the nonsense channels as much as i can, but i'm fighting with 1 arm behind my back as the missus is less strict on the matter.
Its not just from my kids though, its all my kids mates and friends kids etc.

Absolutely parents have a say in kids and what they watch and how you educate them.
I'm lucky that my friends and our extended family are relatively well educated and many have post graduate qualifications and PHDs etc. I feel for the less educated parents though who don't understand a lot of this stuff, which in turn gets passed down to their kids.

Re: The EV thread

Reply #68 –
https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-committed-to-developing-new-internal-combustion-engines/

Quote from: LP – on
Governments fail because Politicians want to back a winner in a sprint race, and we've a Parliament full of lawyers who have no idea on the technology side of the debate, and almost zero interest in the long term.

Instead we need engineers or scientists, the UK is just starting to correct this at the moment, we need to do more here and faster. But we have to get the engineers and scientists up to speed on dealing with the public.

Over and over again I've witnessed Australian developed technologies fail to commercialise here, only to then head off-shore and become big things a decade later with the proceeds lost to our country. The concept of a loss leader is completely foreign to our small minded politicians, they seem completely ignorant of global scale.

I think we make a mistake keeping them at arms length to investments, maybe we need to do the exact opposite and become like Germany were both politicians and employees profit from technology developments. They can actually take a vested interest in the projects they manage, it changes the dynamic.
This is more of a case of auto companies trying to extract maximum dollar from customers and win/keep market share from their competition. Do car makers want to make the world greener, save the environment....No imho, they just want to make the most money they can and will adjust, twist their thinking to whats financially better for them.
Toyota have lost the EV race to the Chinese and are now trying or backing every other fuel sourced engine to try and get a point of difference to set them apart and keep the money rolling in and their position as No 1 in the world.
ie https://www.drive.com.au/news/toyota-committed-to-developing-new-internal-combustion-engines/......its hydrogen one day, ammonia the next and now full circle back to ICE...
 I dont envy Kruddler having to choose what car for his wife and how its powered to buy next because Governments and Carmakers are not on the same page and future values, cost/supply of fuels, what infrastructure will prevail are all unknown quantities and I can see why DJC has decided to keep his V8 Landcruiser and not involve himself in overthinking it all.
We are different to the USA and Europe so we cant take a lead on what they are doing and China who have flooded their own country with EV's are starting to retreat from production.
I dont think the public are stupid, more naive thinking that Governments and Carmakers care about them, their futures and the Environment.

Re: The EV thread

Reply #69 –
Whilst I agree that Government and carmakers don’t care about the environment, government at least has the role of setting the agenda.
It shouldn’t be backing horses as such but mandating emissions etc.
The market can then move where they want, this will bring innovation.
Let’s go BIG !

Re: The EV thread

Reply #70 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Believe me, i try and limit youtube and the nonsense channels as much as i can, but i'm fighting with 1 arm behind my back as the missus is less strict on the matter.
Its not just from my kids though, its all my kids mates and friends kids etc.
Yep - it's hard to get them away from devices.

Re: The EV thread

Reply #71 –
Quote from: northernblue – on
Whilst I agree that Government and carmakers don’t care about the environment, government at least has the role of setting the agenda.
It shouldn’t be backing horses as such but mandating emissions etc.
The market can then move where they want, this will bring innovation.

...and thats the barrow i was pushing before.

Put your foot down and make some big calls, and MAKE it happen.

I can't recall the specifics but there was some talk about Canberra supposedly banning new ICE vehicles from 2025 or some nonsense.
I don't know if that is still a thing, or what the end result of all that was, but im sure that they've bitten off more than they can chew if that is indeed a target they are chasing.

If the government offered some huge financial incentives to big business to set up new technology, manufacturing and infrastructure to fast track hydrogen vehicles for example, then you might have someone like Toyota want to take up that challenge.

If you sit on your hands and do nothing....then nothing happens.

Re: The EV thread

Reply #72 –
We can't stop living while Nero fiddles, we have to make a call, then they can burn us retrospectively.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The EV thread

Reply #73 –
Quote from: northernblue – on
Whilst I agree that Government and carmakers don’t care about the environment, government at least has the role of setting the agenda.
It shouldn’t be backing horses as such but mandating emissions etc.
The market can then move where they want, this will bring innovation.
There is the expectation that Governments both Fed and State have to help provide and approve infrastructure plus support the means to achieve emission targets by incentives. That does mean choosing a horse as a favourite and making a bet on the future and they have picked EV's. Eg they have pledged 75% of Govt vehicles will be EV vehicles of some description by end 2025
The NT Government are being generous unlike my home state Victoria who are giving residents SFA in comparison going by this information: https://www.novatedleaseaustralia.com.au/electric-cars/ev-incentives.
I believe Hydrogen fuel cell cars are only available to companies in Aus by lease and special order which is a shame which really only leaves EV's and their different varieties as the only option for ordinary punters unless you want to continue down the ICE path.
The Germans are having second thoughts on EV's though and the head of BMW is leading the way.....Mr Zipse didnt tell anyone though he has just done a deal with GWM to supply batteries for his EV beamers....and he wasnt truthful about the lower end of the market either because he knows BYD have entered that part of the market and are starting to sell cars.
https://fortune.com/europe/2024/02/03/germany-electric-vehicle-sales-drop-carmakers-audi-vw-bmw/



Re: The EV thread

Reply #74 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
The Germans are having second thoughts on EV's though and the head of BMW is leading the way.....Mr Zipse didnt tell anyone though he has just done a deal with GWM to supply batteries for his EV beamers....and he wasnt truthful about the lower end of the market either because he knows BYD have entered that part of the market and are starting to sell cars.
https://fortune.com/europe/2024/02/03/germany-electric-vehicle-sales-drop-carmakers-audi-vw-bmw/
Zipse played the long game, the game that our politicians should be playing, he cut through the hype and really when you ignore the EV hyperbole the choice becomes pretty clear.

In most cases, EV growth comes at the cost of a shift in consumption not a reduction, if we only shift resource consumption to other areas we aren't really becoming zero at all, it's a smokescreen. Where does the energy come from , where do the resources come from, much of it still comes out of the ground even the materials for SolarPV panels. How they attached the word zero to all this stuff is a crime in itself.

If we can take ICE to retrofit with HICE(Hydrogen) or AICE(Ammonia), it means we don't consume more resources replacing perfectly functional cars, engines and transmissions with new. Some will say it can't happen, but it's happened before when LPG became a thing. The trick this time will be not switching from one high carbon emission resource to another high carbon emission limited resource.

Perhaps if Tesla had put their effort into replacing ICEs with Electric Motors, and hot swap batteries instead of built in batteries, things might have worked out better. We already see a growing market in the USA taking the guts out of scrapped Tesla's and retrofitting those guts into classic vehicles. It's hard to imagine it's a thing, but it's is and it is growing on both the personal vehicle and the light transport side. Retrofit hybrid is also another thing, whole fleets similar to UPS, DHL and Fedex are going that way because it makes sense.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"