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Topic: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide (Read 38081 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #180 –
Quote from: PaulP on
I want the club to be successful, so I look forward to your prophecies and beliefs about Bolton being correct, but I don't buy into the "offense only" myth making that surrounds Ratts' tenure.

I didn't say offense only.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #181 –
Quote from: Thryleon on
Which brings us to another point

Bolton is nearing the end of his "three year not a contract but permanent employment"  contract.

Do we need to revise this arrangement given we have confidence we have the right man in place?

Yes, i agree.
I agreed with Carlton setting it up the way they did, after what they went through.
But now, i believe he is worthy of comfort, via a traditional contract

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #182 –
Quote from: thrunthrublu on
I didn't say offense only.

If I've misquoted you, I apologize. No doubt you would be familiar with the paraphrasing and name calling from that era - one way runners, down hill skiers etc.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #183 –
Quote from: kruddler on
Bombers had confidence in Hird.
Collingwood had confidence in Buckley.

Sure things are tracking nicely, but lets not get ahead of ourselves just yet.

I don't think Bolton is the type of guy to do a 'Ross Lyon' on us.

Tend to agree....bit early yet , with contracts comes more pressure and probably targets that have to be achieved .
I'd prefer to leave things as they are and not introduce any perceived pressure at least until he has done 3 years and
we have a bigger sample of his work. No reason to change anything while we are making progress...

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #184 –
Quote from: PaulP on
If I've misquoted you, I apologize. No doubt you would be familiar with the paraphrasing and name calling from that era - one way runners, down hill skiers etc.

Its not name calling, it just is what it was.
He had an awesome offensive game, mainly because he had the personnel to deliver it. Some of the most exciting and also some of the most frustrating blues footy i've seen in the last 15 years was from that era.
He took us to a kick within a prelim. There's no person, i would like to see have success more than him- in what ever club shows faith in him
 

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #185 –
Quote from: thrunthrublu on
Its not name calling, it just is what it was.
He had an awesome offensive game, mainly because he had the personnel to deliver it. Some of the most exciting and also some of the most frustrating blues footy i've seen in the last 15 years was from that era.
He took us to a kick within a prelim. There's no person, i would like to see have success more than him- in what ever club shows faith in him

This thread has strayed so far from its origins............however, if I may be excused a little more misdirection :
have a brief look at where we sat for points conceded over the last few seasons (obviously, higher up is worse) :

2012 - 10th

2013 - 10th
2014 - 5th
2015 - 1st

2016 - 9th
2017 (to date) - 9th

To me, Bolton has almost brought us full circle, and we now have a defensive record comparable to Ratten's last season. Yet under Bolton, we are now seen as a tight defensive unit etc., things are looking up etc, yet under Ratts we were a basket case that leaked goals, could only attack and not defend etc.

Well, there's just no accounting for that, except that some myths need to be exposed and shamed for what they really are.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #186 –
The thing to remember about Bolts is he & SOS have brought in a lot of youth.  Yes, there's experienced talent leading the way, but there's a lot of kids learning together at once.  It's very difficult to compare the current team with any of our previous teams when they're in very different parts of the lifecycle.  If their mind is on the prize they'll be planning for how we are going to be in the next 1 - 5 years.  It's where we end up that matters.  I have some faith in them, but I'm a pretty trusting kinda guy. 

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #187 –
Quote from: Tragic on
The thing to remember about Bolts is he & SOS have brought in a lot of youth.  Yes, there's experienced talent leading the way, but there's a lot of kids learning together at once.  It's very difficult to compare the current team with any of our previous teams when they're in very different parts of the lifecycle.  If their mind is on the prize they'll be planning for how we are going to be in the next 1 - 5 years.  It's where we end up that matters.  I have some faith in them, but I'm a pretty trusting kinda guy.

That's a fair post. I can certainly accept that, but our back 6 are not kids as such - no doubt a couple of them are young. No doubt the mids and the forwards have plenty who got out of nappies five minutes ago.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #188 –
Quote from: PaulP on
This thread has strayed so far from its origins............however, if I may be excused a little more misdirection :
have a brief look at where we sat for points conceded over the last few seasons (obviously, higher up is worse) :

2012 - 10th

2013 - 10th
2014 - 5th
2015 - 1st

2016 - 9th
2017 (to date) - 9th

To me, Bolton has almost brought us full circle, and we now have a defensive record comparable to Ratten's last season. Yet under Bolton, we are now seen as a tight defensive unit etc., things are looking up etc, yet under Ratts we were a basket case that leaked goals, could only attack and not defend etc.

Well, there's just no accounting for that, except that some myths need to be exposed and shamed for what they really are.

to be fair to bolton, he doesn't have judd, garlett, betts (or bootsma)at his disposal.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #189 –
Quote from: PaulP on
This thread has strayed so far from its origins............however, if I may be excused a little more misdirection :
have a brief look at where we sat for points conceded over the last few seasons (obviously, higher up is worse) :

2012 - 10th

2013 - 10th
2014 - 5th
2015 - 1st

2016 - 9th
2017 (to date) - 9th

To me, Bolton has almost brought us full circle, and we now have a defensive record comparable to Ratten's last season. Yet under Bolton, we are now seen as a tight defensive unit etc., things are looking up etc, yet under Ratts we were a basket case that leaked goals, could only attack and not defend etc.

Well, there's just no accounting for that, except that some myths need to be exposed and shamed for what they really are.

Surely you are joking.
You are trying to compare those two teams?
One was favourite to win a flag, the other was favourite to win a spoon.
It is no myth, our defensive pressure under ratten was poor.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #190 –
Quote from: JonHenry on
Surely you are joking.
You are trying to compare those two teams?
One was favourite to win a flag, the other was favourite to win a spoon.
It is no myth, our defensive pressure under ratten was poor.

Points conceded is one of several factors that get considered when looking at team defense, but it is IMO, by far the most important factor. You can have plenty of rebounds off the HBF, plenty of intercept marks, plenty of tackles, pressure acts etc. All will mean jack s h i t if you leak goals.

Bolton has sacrificed our attacking game in order to shore up the defense. That sacrifice has occurred both in terms of recruiting and also in terms of game plan, which essentially revolves around flooding, spare man back, parking the bus etc. This mitigates against any real attacking moves, and is one reason why we get run over in final quarters - players are too stuffed playing a taxing game plan. Of course, the relative youth of some of our troops plays a part as well. I expect that as they get older and more experienced, the last quarter fade outs will hopefully cease.

The point I make is completely valid - you can't pot one coach for being poor defensively, when his record is more than comparable to that of a defense first coach.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #191 –
the last quarter 'fade outs' are more a function of having to play catch up footy. And I think it's more mental than physical.....

We still have that woeful quarter (or even part of a quarter) where we concede 4-6 goals way too easily and thereafter we're behind the 8-ball.
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #192 –
There is a fairly significant difference Paul and that is that under Ratten the issue was that once the ball was in our defensive half we seemed vulnerable. Under Bolton we have had a team such as GWS bombarding us, but they have backed their structures and held strong.

Our teams under Park and the great West Coast teams under Mick were defensive greats. If you are a team that is very hard to score against it makes sense you need to score less to win. If our team does hone their defensive skills at this time that we are (at times) seemingly under some fairly relentless pressure then it should be that as the rest of the team continues to evolve and we take greater possession and greater control of the game that we should be scored against even less.

If doesn't always work and we will get some bad blowouts along the way Richmond and Port both scored over 130 points against us and that is ugly as hell, but then we have managed to restrict GWS and Adelaide to a combined total of 160 points and gone 1/2 in those games.

Perhaps take a look back to 2015 where we had 107 points against us as an average or even 2014. In those years we were actually trying to play a defensive game plan, but getting picked apart easily.

The difference with Bolts is that he has come in with a lot of young kids and he is teaching them defensive structures that are working. If we open the game up to please fans, then we essentially  need to get rid of the coach as we are saying this doesn't work and I can't see any metric which suggests Bolton isn't working. The whole philosophy is on pressure it is on putting the team ahead of personal glory and running free ahead of the ball.

Honestly everyone needs to sit tight. We have blooded so many young players in the last 2 years and are infinitely harder to play against than we were. With that being a stated aim... then surely it means the club is on the path it set out on.

Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #193 –
MIO, I don't agree with your first paragraph, but the rest is all a-o-k to me.

I understand where Bolts is coming from - he's the man in charge, this is his way of doing things, then so be it.

My concern is where we go from here. Being hard to score against is one thing - winning games is quite another. in 2016, we were 9th for points conceded, 17th for points scored, 14th overall. At this point in season 2017, we are again 9th for points conceded, last for points scored, 16th overall. Is this stagnation, or even slightly backward movement, a necessary part of the evolutionary process, or have we missed something along the way ? Is it simply down to youth, or is there more to it ?

As I said, I'll be watching with great interest to see how it all pans out. Hopefully Bolton really smashes it.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Adelaide

Reply #194 –
These past and present comparisons are fraught with danger, the game has changed so much since 2010 it's almost like watching a different sport! So, I'm not sure there is a great relevance to these comparisons.
The Force Awakens!