Princes Park => Robert Heatley Stand => Topic started by: Spanner on April 22, 2017, 12:50:27 pm
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Spanner on April 22, 2017, 12:50:27 pm
Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy. I'm so over these guys.
Has there ever been a more over rated duo than these two? Jesus, talk about turn over kings and soft at the contest. I hope that Bolton trades both these clowns at seasons end so I at least don't have to waste my time watching their continued ineptitude representing this once great club.
I would prefer to watch an entire team of 18 year olds getting smashed week in week out, that show some heart than these two constantly turning it over and putting team mates under pressure. For two that are supposed to be skillful players, I'm yet to see any evidence of that. Marc Murphy's missed goal in the first sums him up at the club perfectly. When you need him or his cohort to do something to give the team some heart you can guarantee they'll f*ck it up.
Over the last couple of weeks there are numerous examples from both the to illustrate their sh*tness. Go watch the games again and do it critically and you'll see what I'm talking about. People giving either of these two votes in any game is beyond belief in my eyes. It's like you blokes are watching a different game to me or are living in an alternate world where lack of skill and softness is to be lauded. They are kings of killing momentum and sucking the life out of the side with their efforts and poor execution of basic footy skills. Although, Casboult and his goal kicking is right up there as well in this regard.
Look at Samo Petrevski-Seton, now that's someone with poise and doesn't panic even under extreme pressure. Hits a target 95% of the time and is in his 5th game. Then look at Gibbs and Murphy's constant turn overs and mis-kicks. I can't remember the last time either got the ball to spin correctly through the air using a drop punt. It's just embarrassing! Having said that, Docherty hasn't been much better.
You would expect Murphy as the captain of the club to show at least some grunt at the contest, but all he does is soft it up when he's there and allows opponents to run past him like he's standing still. Our back line is placed under so much pressure because these two effectively put on zero pressure at the source. They allow their direct opponents to simply stroll through the centre of the ground unimpeded. It sh*ts me no end when I see Murphy with his customary head wobble to make it look like he's putting in an effort. I don't see the head wobble when he has the ball on the outside running 1 minute later in preparation for another turn over.
Don't give me this bullsh*t that they're both spent from running covering for the kids, that's just plain crap. If anything, it's the other way around because the kids are constantly having to sprint back trying to make up for the inevitable turn over. All the while, those causing the turn over stroll back without a care in the world. It's like they're above all that and aren't required to put in the effort to run back and support.
They are the two of the most selfish players in the AFL with zero commitment to the cause and are only in it for themselves and what the club can do for them.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 22, 2017, 01:24:30 pm
Unfortunately Spanner, I cant argue with any of that. When you look at their games (not just last nights, any) and mark them hard because of their age, experience and standing at the Club, they come up very short on many occasions. They are not elite ball users I dont care what anyone says. I am happy to play to the kids and suffer the growing pains but I am having difficulty tolerating the efforts (inconsistent) of our senior players, these two especially. Murph will not be proud of that game whether he was injured or not. Whether he can redeem himself or not remains to be seen. As for Gibbs, he just looks like he doesn't give a feck. A few years ago, he admitted to snapping out of his lacklustre effort under the mentoring of Dean Laidley, he showed great urgency in games and went hard at it. He seems to have slipped back into that pre Laidley attitude.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on April 22, 2017, 02:28:55 pm
I'd be surprised if Caracella's arrival rather than Vickery's departure isn't the main reason why the Tiges have looked half decent.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Spanner on April 22, 2017, 03:02:56 pm
I'd be surprised if Caracella's arrival rather than Vickery's departure isn't the main reason why the Tiges have looked half decent.
So you don't give any credence to poor attitude and effort has any contributing factor to team moral and performance? The selfishness of effort these two portray weekly is directly attributable to where we've been as a club since they've been here.
They think their shi+ don't stink and believe because they're high drafting picks, effort is only required when they feel like it.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: laj on April 22, 2017, 03:07:04 pm
I doubt Vickery had much had much to do with anything. They did make finals 3 years in a row before last year and we're only 4 rounds in. Vickery was playing then, and contributed.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on April 22, 2017, 03:10:02 pm
So you don't give any credence to poor attitude and effort has any contributing factor to team moral and performance? The selfishness of effort these two portray weekly is directly attributable to where we've been as a club since they've been here.
They think their shi+ don't stink and believe because they're high drafting picks, effort is only required when they feel like it.
You've had it in for them for ages. As with all of us, you are completely entitled to your opinion.
Putting aside the question of Murph for the minute, the club has been steadfast in its praise and defense of Gibbs since day 1. All his coaches, starting with Pagan, Ratten, MM, Barker and Bolts have had nothing but good things to say about him. Compare this with Jack Watts' position at Melbourne, where coaches and others have publicly taken him to task at various points. We saw last season the club flat out refused to trade him, unless they got an offer they were happy with. This gives you some idea about how the club views him.
And of course, poor attitude is unacceptable, and is without doubt a corrosive quality. Both of them give me the craps sometimes as well. But they are still in our top 5 players, week in week out. If they are both out next week against the Swans, I guess we will know one way or the other how they fit into the scheme of things.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: bignic on April 22, 2017, 03:24:53 pm
Agree 100% spanner. Murphy turns it over continuously, can't kick straight from 30 metres out, and can't stick a tackle at all because he's scared about injuring his shoulders. So he makes out like he's trying to tackle, but isn't really doing it.
Gibbs, well, I've had it in for Gibbs from day 1. F-or every good game he's played, he's played 30 cr@p ones. I was praying that we could do the Adelaide deal, but once again, God let me down. Let's hope he's gone at the end of the year.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: michael on April 22, 2017, 03:33:02 pm
Spanner, whilst your comments are strong, its obvious to me that you have had a gut full and that I can understand.
You do single out Murph and Gibbs, but i don't think they have been the lone rangers in regards to certain deficiencies.
From my perspective when i observe our players, specifically our more seasoned players I try to give myself some perspective by comparing them to similar players in other teams. Right now, Murph and Gibbs have not been up to scratch, so far.
I do question some of Murphs disposals, as they can seem to be poorly executed, but then i have to remember the cattle around him maybe doesnt provide him any decent options. Remember we do have alot of newbies who are still learning.
I try not to look at one match in isolation and pass judgement as that can lead to incorrect conclusions. I'm hoping to see some improvement in around 8 rounds, better skills, better decision making once our newbies get their head around the gameplan.
Lets just all take a deep breath, pour a bourbon, we know its going to be a long year, but sometimes you have to go backwards a little before you start moving forward.
Rock bottom exists for a reason, from that point the only way is up, i'm content to put up with disappointment because i know it will eventually deliver us sustained access.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Spanner on April 22, 2017, 04:36:38 pm
Obviously you and your mate are comfortable with their efforts. Keep that head in the sand and those rose coloured glasses on. Wouldn't want to say anything outside what you consider the norm otherwise that boat may be rocked.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 22, 2017, 04:39:22 pm
Why are Murphy's and Gibbs's skill errors immune to criticism? Are people suggesting they dont exist?
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Spanner on April 22, 2017, 04:54:45 pm
They are number 1 picks so they can't do no wrong. They also play for Carlton and therefore should be placed in a cocoon and molly-coddled to protect their fragile existence and egos.
It's about time they're called out for what they are. Over paid hacks.
It just goes to show you how good Judd really was in carrying these two loafers. Now it's poor Cripps' turn and I really find that appalling that two of the most senior players at the club are climbing on the back of Cripps (who's what, 21 years old??) and asking him to carry the load.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Micky0 on April 22, 2017, 05:01:21 pm
Murph works his guts out and Whilst I agree Gibbs seems To be lacklustre at times he is also one of our most skillful players.
We all think we know everything watching these guys play once a week but obviously not - the club would not have stayed with Murph as captain and Gibbs in the leadership group if they weren't worthy of it.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Micky0 on April 22, 2017, 05:05:35 pm
Do yourself a favour to get out of last nights funk
Turn on Vhannel 7 the NBs are winning against Willie who they haven't beaten in three years.
Cunningham McKay Graham Jones Boekhorst Smedts all playing well - get some positivity into yourself ;D
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 22, 2017, 05:20:00 pm
The fact that they turn it over or put team mates under pressure, and the effect it has on the group (ie the young ones expect more from their leaders) is fair game I reckon. Heck, Simmo even turned to Murph with an evil stare after one of the turnovers. I understand last night was not a good night at all, but the criticism of the leaders/more experienced players though is somewhat warranted. In Murphs and Simmon Capt and V Capt acceptance speeches on CFC TV, they both stated the accountability would go both ways.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: kruddler on April 22, 2017, 06:54:28 pm
Its funny. Pagan was mentioned a couple of times after the match and BANG. Spanner shows up.
It's like Beetlejuice by proxy.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 22, 2017, 06:56:36 pm
Take it easy folks...Spanner is venting and while being colourful has probably just said what some supporters are thinking... those supporters who have had enough of us being a bottom club and looking for some answers.....FWIW I think Murphy has been good this season and Gibbs serviceable in most games.. Are they great No 1 Picks....No....low impacting players who can be very good but not in the elite category ie Judd, Ablett, Dangerfield, Mitchell, Fyfe. Martin etc Does that mean I would trade them out?..Yep...Right offer and they are both on their way....neither will be part of our next top 4 finals team IMO and we need to roll the dice while they still have value....
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: cookie2 on April 22, 2017, 07:19:14 pm
Take it easy folks...Spanner is venting and while being colourful has probably just said what some supporters are thinking... those supporters who have had enough of us being a bottom club and looking for some answers.....FWIW I think Murphy has been good this season and Gibbs serviceable in most games.. Are they great No 1 Picks....No....low impacting players who can be very good but not in the elite category ie Judd, Ablett, Dangerfield, Mitchell, Fyfe. Martin etc Does that mean I would trade them out?..Yep...Right offer and they are both on their way....neither will be part of our next top 4 finals team IMO and we need to roll the dice while they still have value....
+1
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on April 22, 2017, 07:20:54 pm
Take it easy folks...Spanner is venting and while being colourful has probably just said what some supporters are thinking... those supporters who have had enough of us being a bottom club and looking for some answers.....FWIW I think Murphy has been good this season and Gibbs serviceable in most games.. Are they great No 1 Picks....No....low impacting players who can be very good but not in the elite category ie Judd, Ablett, Dangerfield, Mitchell, Fyfe. Martin etc Does that mean I would trade them out?..Yep...Right offer and they are both on their way....neither will be part of our next top 4 finals team IMO and we need to roll the dice while they still have value....
Good players need to be surrounded by other good players to really show their wares. We've seen this with Betts.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Spanner on April 22, 2017, 07:22:52 pm
Its funny. Pagan was mentioned a couple of times after the match and BANG. Spanner shows up.
It's like Beetlejuice by proxy.
Why is it when a player or players are critised all the politically correct brigade come running? It's like I've directly insulted your mother.
FFS, my take on it is they're hacks. You don't have to agree, but I find it amazing that people like you are so accepting of mediocrity. But hey, whatever rocks your boat...
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: DJC on April 22, 2017, 08:32:42 pm
Why is it when a player or players are critised all the politically correct brigade come running? It's like I've directly insulted your mother.
FFS, my take on it is they're hacks. You don't have to agree, but I find it amazing that people like you are so accepting of mediocrity. But hey, whatever rocks your boat...
If you think Murphy and Gibbs are the problem you've got rocks in your head ::)
They may not meet your ideal footballer criteria but they are both highly rated by the different coaching panels they've played under, their peers and opposition clubs.
By all means have a crack if you think they're not performing to whatever standards you think they should be but don't attack them or any other Carlton player personally. Leave that to Richmond supporters.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: bratblue on April 22, 2017, 08:57:46 pm
Why is it when a player or players are critised all the politically correct brigade come running? It's like I've directly insulted your mother.
FFS, my take on it is they're hacks. You don't have to agree, but I find it amazing that people like you are so accepting of mediocrity. But hey, whatever rocks your boat...
This guy cracks me up. :) :)
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 22, 2017, 09:53:00 pm
Take it easy folks...Spanner is venting and while being colourful has probably just said what some supporters are thinking... those supporters who have had enough of us being a bottom club and looking for some answers.....FWIW I think Murphy has been good this season and Gibbs serviceable in most games.. Are they great No 1 Picks....No....low impacting players who can be very good but not in the elite category ie Judd, Ablett, Dangerfield, Mitchell, Fyfe. Martin etc Does that mean I would trade them out?..Yep...Right offer and they are both on their way....neither will be part of our next top 4 finals team IMO and we need to roll the dice while they still have value....
FWIW. I know plenty of Carlton Supporters who share Spanners opinion.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Spanner on April 22, 2017, 10:39:56 pm
When you consider these blokes are getting paid in the vacinity of 500-700K I reckon they're fair game for some serious critiques of there efforts.
These two have milked our club and their fellow team mates for their entire careers. Now it's time for someone to call them on it. That someone may as well be me.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Spanner on April 22, 2017, 10:41:10 pm
FWIW. I know plenty of Carlton Supporters who share Spanners opinion.
Glad to hear I'm not the only one.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Jeffy38 on April 23, 2017, 07:42:35 am
Murphy always misses the easy set shots.
Gibbs coughed one up on Friday kicking out of defence which should be bread and butter for a B grade player.
I don't think they are over rated, no one rates them.
Murphy we are stuck with now, Gibbs will get traded
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: pinot on April 23, 2017, 07:55:40 am
Trade them both and trade Kreuzer. This will usher a truly next-gen team.
Cunninghams power play was almost Dangerfield like bursting through packs. He must play dont care how many errors he makes he just must play.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Baggers on April 23, 2017, 11:17:15 am
The bottom line re our 3rd quarter/regular capitulations is that there is a failure of grand proportions from on-field leaders when we're worked out by the opposition and they counter our structure(s) - we, collectively, p1ss ourselves... this is a time in games when our leaders are supposed to inspire and give direction to the newbies, instead we're relying on our newbies to give the older blokes 'and injection of energy'... what a load of frog sh1t that is.
Gibbs and Murphy have both been very professional and hard working this year, but when they ease up, we're stuffed. And they both ease up from time to time during games. I wonder if both having come to the good ship CFC during a period of abject failure have been scared to the point of tolerating 'losing', like it's almost burnt into their brains. And I think there is still something of our 'introvert' days still playing out.
In an ideal world Murph would be a small forward who goes into the midfield from time to time and who wouldn't be the Captain, he really is an incredibly talented footballer who I'd never want to see leave, we've just burdened him excessively. And Gibbs would be traded to Port (Adelaide don't have as great a need) for a first rounder. Then we would spend up and get in two marquee players. Our kids look good, very good. We need an extroverted skipper, someone who is used to/demands winning.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on April 23, 2017, 11:25:27 am
Good post Baggers, and I agree with most of that.
As with too many of our players, Murph's best year was 2011, when he was 2nd banana behind Judd, and was mainly used as an outside play maker, and creative small forward, both positions to which he is best suited. He does ok in his current role as an inside player, but I just think he's being misused.
Gibbs was used for too long as a spare parts man, and played in every position except ruck. This quite likely stalled or derailed his development.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: RiverRat on April 23, 2017, 11:29:15 am
In an ideal world Murph would be a small forward who goes into the midfield from time to time and who wouldn't be the Captain, he really is an incredibly talented footballer who I'd never want to see leave, we've just burdened him excessively. And Gibbs would be traded to Port (Adelaide don't have as great a need) for a first rounder. Then we would spend up and get in two marquee players. Our kids look good, very good. We need an extroverted skipper, someone who is used to/demands winning.
I still see Murphy as a midfielder; his main problem has always been the evolution of bigger bodied midfielders who crunch him at every opportunity.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: jeza on April 23, 2017, 12:21:49 pm
I don't agree quite so much on Gibbs. I think he actually shows some passion / intent (though not to the level of a Selwood, etc.). Tackles much better these days than he did in his youth and does contribute deep into the final quarter even when the game is lost. Still too much going missing when the heat is on though when we really want our leaders to stand up and cut the crap when things are running against us.
Murphy on the other hand... I can't find much to defend him. You cannot hide a player in your midfield who won't tackle. Particularly with the style Bolton is trying to play which is all about fierce competing and pressure. I understand the issues with his shoulders aren't really his fault but it is reality and right now I don't think we're acknowledging the reality of the situation. Your captain is sitting there asking his team to be desperate and give everything for the cause but it's a bit of a "do as I say not as I do" situation which is cancerous.
We won't ever move forward properly until he's gone. He could have some trade value to a GWS for example which could help set up our next premiership team.
As to the language used in this thread - I'd have less of an issue with this than the one where individuals line up to write off young players before the season even starts. That is truly embarrassing to read.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: cookie2 on April 23, 2017, 12:36:03 pm
This could be turned into a win/win, at least for one of these guys. They get the chance to go somewhere else, without the present burden of developing youngsters, and possibly win a premiership and we get on with our rebuild without all of this soul searching.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Micky0 on April 23, 2017, 01:39:59 pm
The bottom line re our 3rd quarter/regular capitulations is that there is a failure of grand proportions from on-field leaders when we're worked out by the opposition and they counter our structure(s) - we, collectively, p1ss ourselves... this is a time in games when our leaders are supposed to inspire and give direction to the newbies, instead we're relying on our newbies to give the older blokes 'and injection of energy'... what a load of frog sh1t that is.
Agree.
Murphy and Gibbs have both been frustrating to watch nearly their whole careers. We can all see the potential, but it has never reached 100%. Now that 1's the captain and both are senior players and leaders of the club, it makes it even harder to accept their inconsistencies.
Murphy I think we will just have to learn to live with, although releasing him of the captaincy might actually be good for him, I'm not sure. Gibbs I would trade at seasons end. Adelaide know we are serious now and should offer up a reasonable trade.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: DJC on April 23, 2017, 02:21:32 pm
I guess we'll have to put up with Captain Turnover for another week. Would have been nice to see how much better the mid field performed without his "gut jogging".
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: townsendcalling on April 23, 2017, 02:36:02 pm
Bothered to check the stats of Gibbs in the previous 4 weeks (thumb injury week 5 possibly effects all ball handling and tackling??) or Murphy (early knee injury week 5 possibly effected all areas of his game!?). Both still maintained significant game time despite their injuries.
Love these people who take a major, major whack at guys who are having a fair crack in a weak, young team...be interesting to check their sporting CV for endurance, courage, leadership, application, determination at whatever level they attained because all those attributes can be measured regardless of skill
Title: Re: The Pox Bros: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 23, 2017, 02:43:22 pm
Murphy and Gibbs have both been frustrating to watch nearly their whole careers. We can all see the potential, but it has never reached 100%. Now that 1's the captain and both are senior players and leaders of the club, it makes it even harder to accept their inconsistencies.
Murphy I think we will just have to learn to live with, although releasing him of the captaincy might actually be good for him, I'm not sure. Gibbs I would trade at seasons end. Adelaide know we are serious now and should offer up a reasonable trade.
If we blink on Gibbs at years end, Adelaide will offer is SFA so SOS needs to treads carefully if they decide to off load him this year. Watching him this season, I am pissed off because I see a bloke who doesn't give a stuff about our club and doesnt want to be there. He wanted to leave and still wants to leave despite what the club told the media. They tell us he is a professional and would do his job going fwd but me personally? I am not seeing that. I am probably way off the mark, but thats what it looks like to me.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Spanner on April 23, 2017, 03:06:46 pm
Bothered to check the stats of Gibbs in the previous 4 weeks (thumb injury week 5 possibly effects all ball handling and tackling??) or Murphy (early knee injury week 5 possibly effected all areas of his game!?). Both still maintained significant game time despite their injuries.
This is a typical response when defending the two. OK, it may explain diminished performance this week, but what about the 200 or so other games they've played for the club? Or do they seem to sustain these injuries on a weekly basis especially when the going gets a bit tough?
Seems to me to be a convenient excuse given that now more people are asking the question.
Just admit it, they haven't turned out how the club had hoped. Don't try and defend the indefensible.
Oh, and questioning me on my sporting CV has nothing to do with this issue. As stated, these guys are on somewhere between 500-700K. If you put in one p*ss poor performance on that kind of money you should be questioned, let alone make a career of flying on the coat tails of the like of Judd and Cripps and then pretending to be club champions and accepting accolades you're not entitled to. They should be viewed as chumps, not champs.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: flyboy77 on April 23, 2017, 04:12:36 pm
I have to side with Spanner.
Heck, don't look at stats, a smart players can easily get 35 possessions and have little effect on the outcome of a game - that is where I see Murphy.
Gibbs undoubtedly can have more impact on a game but only when he chooses to.....
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Thryleon on April 23, 2017, 05:57:06 pm
Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but I'm not going to agree with spanner on this one.
Some players simply can't do more than what we see.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: kruddler on April 23, 2017, 06:24:17 pm
Why is it when a player or players are critised all the politically correct brigade come running? It's like I've directly insulted your mother.
FFS, my take on it is they're hacks. You don't have to agree, but I find it amazing that people like you are so accepting of mediocrity. But hey, whatever rocks your boat...
Not sure what i said led to that response.
My take on it is, if we get offered something good - bye bye. However, don't let them go for nothing. Cash in, not hand out.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Juddkreuzer on April 23, 2017, 06:29:50 pm
When Judd came he was leading a very inexperienced mid field, which contained the likes of Murphy and Gibbs. Judd got smashed by the opposition with little support but being the superstar he was, he was able to impact on games irregardless. Now Murphy and Gibbs find themselves the two most targeted by opposition coaches yet they still mange to have an impact. Murphy is killing all comers in the JP medal. A commentator made the remark a while ago that he had emerged from Judds shadow and was now a true leader in his own right.
Dangerfield isn't the greatest set shot for goal.
Gibbs plays the game in a manner that could be viewed as indolent, where in fact he works his backside off. He has the ability to create play and reads the game as good as anyone. As for effort, who can forget Simmo's 250th where he spewed at the end of the game. Both these guys played with injuries (and Cripps isn't 100%) in a team with 7 teenagers, on a ground most had never played on against a team in red hot form. Kreuzers absence should not be understated either.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: townsendcalling on April 23, 2017, 06:52:07 pm
When Judd came he was leading a very inexperienced mid field, which contained the likes of Murphy and Gibbs. Judd got smashed by the opposition with little support but being the superstar he was, he was able to impact on games irregardless. Now Murphy and Gibbs find themselves the two most targeted by opposition coaches yet they still mange to have an impact. Murphy is killing all comers in the JP medal. A commentator made the remark a while ago that he had emerged from Judds shadow and was now a true leader in his own right.
Dangerfield isn't the greatest set shot for goal.
Gibbs plays the game in a manner that could be viewed as indolent, where in fact he works his backside off. He has the ability to create play and reads the game as good as anyone. As for effort, who can forget Simmo's 250th where he spewed at the end of the game. Both these guys played with injuries (and Cripps isn't 100%) in a team with 7 teenagers, on a ground most had never played on against a team in red hot form. Kreuzers absence should not be understated either.
X2. (I wonder how my old mate Spanner would have assessed Craig Bradley's career??)
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 23, 2017, 07:17:45 pm
X2. (I wonder how my old mate Spanner would have assessed Craig Bradley's career??)
Can I ask what similarities you think there are btw Gibbs, Murph and Sir Braddles? I personally think there are none. Sir Craig was a gut running machine who wore his opponents into the ground.
Title: Re: The Pox Bros: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Spanner on April 23, 2017, 07:22:06 pm
X2. (I wonder how my old mate Spanner would have assessed Craig Bradley's career??)
You mean the guy who couldn't help but hit a target 99% of the time? Why would I have a problem with him? Why would I have a problem with his gut running that was amazing? Why would I have a problem with his ability to kick a goal when required and under pressure?
Do you even understand what this thread is about? :-\
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on April 23, 2017, 07:26:46 pm
You mean the guy who couldn't help but hit a target 99% of the time? Why would I have a problem with him? Why would I have a problem with his gut running that was amazing? Why would I have a problem with his ability to kick a goal when required and under pressure?
Do you even understand what this thread is about? :-\
In the very first post that opens this thread, you make a few references to your 2 favorite players being soft coc@s. So was Braddles. I recall many at the time of his career noting his aversion to the contest and physical contact. That's not to diminish his many other fine attributes.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Baggers on April 23, 2017, 07:27:38 pm
I still see Murphy as a midfielder; his main problem has always been the evolution of bigger bodied midfielders who crunch him at every opportunity.
Yep, which is why I'd like to see him as a small forward, to extend his career! If he was 192cm and 92 kgs or thereabouts, he'd be a gun, but he aint. He is, however, a 'little gun'.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Spanner on April 23, 2017, 07:30:43 pm
Now Murphy and Gibbs find themselves the two most targeted by opposition coaches yet they still mange to have an impact.
Are we watching the same two turnover merchants? Sorry, you must be only watching the pre-game warm up when Gibbs hits all targets and Murphy obtains a spine.
A commentator made the remark a while ago that he had emerged from Judds shadow and was now a true leader in his own right.
Well if a commentator said it, it must be true... :-\ Would it be by chance Dwayne Russell? There's the fountain of knowledge in all things football right there. ::)
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Spanner on April 23, 2017, 07:32:26 pm
In the very first post that opens this thread, you make a few references to your 2 favorite players being soft coc@s. So was Braddles. I recall many at the time of his career noting his aversion to the contest and physical contact. That's not to diminish his many other fine attributes.
Bradley may not have been the toughest player out there, but he made up for it by running all day and creating options and was an elite kick.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: cookie2 on April 23, 2017, 07:33:47 pm
Yep, which is why I'd like to see him as a small forward, to extend his career! If he was 192cm and 92 kgs or thereabouts, he'd be a gun, but he aint. He is, however, a 'little gun'.
Can he be our little gun till our big gun comes along?
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on April 23, 2017, 07:49:33 pm
Bradley may not have been the toughest player out there, but he made up for it by running all day and creating options and was an elite kick. What do the Pox Duo do?
Neither Gibbs nor Murph are as good as Bradley, but then neither are 95% of other blokes who have played the game.
These two might not meet your expectations, but the club clearly views them very positively. They have survived a number of different coaches, recruiting / list managers, board members, regimes and dozens and dozens of other team mates who have come and gone in the last decade. And yet, here they both are. They must be seriously talented at pulling the wool over people's eyes for this to occur.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: IvanAwfulbigone on April 23, 2017, 08:07:13 pm
You mean the guy who couldn't help but hit a target 99% of the time? Why would I have a problem with him? Why would I have a problem with his gut running that was amazing? Why would I have a problem with his ability to kick a goal when required and under pressure?
Do you even understand what this thread is about? :-\
Braddles? So many memories, but one in particular is etched permanently in my mind. 1995 Grand Final. 15 wins in a row beforehand. I was BESIDE myself all week - surely we couldn't stumble at the final hurdle? Please god, noooooo!!! Feeling so nervous I thought I was going to throw up. Opening minutes ... ball rebounds from Geelong's half forward line, ends up in the hands of the running (of course!) Braddles ... takes off like a hare with Geelong player in hot pursuit ... 55 metres ... 50 ... 45 degree angle ... steadies ... kicks ... NEVER IN DOUBT you little bl00dy beauty! Right then and there I KNEW this was going to be a GREAT day.
Having replied in this thread I guess I should stay on topic and respond to the OP. Something stinks at the club but stuffed if I can put my finger on it. So much has changed in the last 10 years yet our poor performance has remained fairly constant. What is the one (or two) constants in those 10 years?
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: dodge on April 23, 2017, 10:21:24 pm
I don't share your opinion, Spanner, however, looking at Chrashs' excellent Jim Park summary, Murph is leading comfortably, suggesting that he has this year, according to this forum been our best, with Gibbs coming in 6th.
Both came to the club close to or at its lowest point and had very little in the way of role models, then got beaten up as 18yos when they were our best players. They have since played at a basket case club, with a bit of success in 2011. They do have faults, however, so do all players everywhere. As someone else posted, maybe that is as good as they are, and we have to accept it/hope others go past them quickly.
We had a season at cricket in Shield grade where I was 31 and the next oldest was 21. There was plenty of talent in the team (excluding me) and we really struggled. Other teams in the comp had a couple of older stars who could take the younger players for a ride and teach them how to play. They were pretty successful.
I think that we sit in the first scenario, with a few good/handy older players and some great young talent. No need to bag the older players that have to try to cover the inexperience.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: DJC on April 23, 2017, 10:24:31 pm
I don't share your opinion, Spanner, however, looking at Chrashs' excellent Jim Park summary, Murph is leading comfortably, suggesting that he has this year, according to this forum been our best, with Gibbs coming in 6th.
Both came to the club close to or at its lowest point and had very little in the way of role models, then got beaten up as 18yos when they were our best players. They have since played at a basket case club, with a bit of success in 2011. They do have faults, however, so do all players everywhere. As someone else posted, maybe that is as good as they are, and we have to accept it/hope others go past them quickly.
We had a season at cricket in Shield grade where I was 31 and the next oldest was 21. There was plenty of talent in the team (excluding me) and we really struggled. Other teams in the comp had a couple of older stars who could take the younger players for a ride and teach them how to play. They were pretty successful.
I think that we sit in the first scenario, with a few good/handy older players and some great young talent. No need to bag the older players that have to try to cover the inexperience.
Nice post Dodge.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Inboltswetrust on April 23, 2017, 11:16:23 pm
Throw ed curnow into the mix. He is ridiculously in the leadership group! Throw Army in there too. Guess what, he is in the leadership group too! Kruzer is another. Seriously, those 3 number 1 picks were butchered. I'm starting to wonder whether we butchered another one (weiters). Yes before you cut me down, we needed a forward. Sache was the one. He looks like he has a bit of nasties about him. Weiters is a politically correct young chap. Wrong breed at a club already full of intraverts led by Mackay etc. Anyway, Murphy's inglorious 0 tackle game in the weekend finished him for mine. I never particularly liked his game style because he has always struggled to kick more that 35 metres. For number 1 draft pick mid, this is a joke. Gibbs doesn't give a fire truck about the club. He's gone at the end of the year anyway. The club is in crisis. I've also heard from a good source (one of the carltonians) that crippa is looking for a trade end of the year. What happens happens, but i think a board spill will end this muck very soon. It has to because we are uncompetitive. We belong in a different league (e.g the ammos). Some of our kids are awesome, I love SPS and Fisher, Marchbank looks ok and I think Tom Williamson can play. By the way while I am on it, Bolton... I am sick of his school teaching euphemisms. Green shoots...ra ra ra. Whatever. Brisbane fielded a very inexperienced side and still almost knocked of the premiers. I went to the Geelong v Saint Kilda game today, and apart from Danger and Selwood, have a guess who was possibly the 3rd best player on the ground........touey. OMG. Yes, that's right, he was awesome. Why is it that players leave us and get better? It's because we are a putza show.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: blueday on April 23, 2017, 11:45:08 pm
Why is it that "touey" is a better player at Geelong than at Carlton (in your opinion)?
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: flyboy77 on April 24, 2017, 07:11:01 am
Throw ed curnow into the mix. He is ridiculously in the leadership group! Throw Army in there too. Guess what, he is in the leadership group too! Kruzer is another. Seriously, those 3 number 1 picks were butchered. I'm starting to wonder whether we butchered another one (weiters). Yes before you cut me down, we needed a forward. Sache was the one. He looks like he has a bit of nasties about him. Weiters is a politically correct young chap. Wrong breed at a club already full of intraverts led by Mackay etc. Anyway, Murphy's inglorious 0 tackle game in the weekend finished him for mine. I never particularly liked his game style because he has always struggled to kick more that 35 metres. For number 1 draft pick mid, this is a joke. Gibbs doesn't give a fire truck about the club. He's gone at the end of the year anyway. The club is in crisis. I've also heard from a good source (one of the carltonians) that crippa is looking for a trade end of the year. What happens happens, but i think a board spill will end this muck very soon. It has to because we are uncompetitive. We belong in a different league (e.g the ammos). Some of our kids are awesome, I love SPS and Fisher, Marchbank looks ok and I think Tom Williamson can play. By the way while I am on it, Bolton... I am sick of his school teaching euphemisms. Green shoots...ra ra ra. Whatever. Brisbane fielded a very inexperienced side and still almost knocked of the premiers. I went to the Geelong v Saint Kilda game today, and apart from Danger and Selwood, have a guess who was possibly the 3rd best player on the ground........touey. OMG. Yes, that's right, he was awesome. Why is it that players leave us and get better? It's because we are a putza show.
Geez mate, I understand the discussion around Gibbs and Murphy but I don't agree that Kreuzer is also in their basket.
He might not be in the very best ruckmen in the comp for his tapwork but only had to look at this week to see how important he is to our midfield group.
A non negotiable i have as a supporter and member is to see 100% effort - Every game and from every player.
I sometimes watch Gibbs and know I'm not getting it and Murphy while better in this department sometimes still leaves me wondering if he could go in harder, tackle more chase harder etc.....Kreuzer however busts his nut for 120 mins in every game he plays. I love the big fella and wish we had a list full of players with his heart.
Should not be in this discussion.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on April 24, 2017, 07:53:53 am
But seriously, Brisvegas doesn't have that luxury....
When Murph and Gibbs don't turn up or go in hard, no one else will either....
That other #1, Matt Kreuzer, shouldn't get away without comment.
I'll just say that in my opinion (and factoring injuries in) none of the three has got remotely close to my expectations for a #1 draft pick.
Let's pray Weitering does.
Once a player makes it onto an AFL list, the number at which they're drafted is completely irrelevant.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: LP on April 24, 2017, 08:03:05 am
Weitering has 2nd year blues, they all get it because it is caused by the opposition not the player.
If you think this year is bad, think about having 5 or 6 débutantes with 2nd year blues next season! :o
The more we keep turning over the harder it will be to climb the ladder. We need players to get to 4 or 5 years, still be interested in playing for the club and be contracted before we can even dream of some success.
It why I argue against removing too many old heads at once, and why trading out Cripps and Weitering to bring in another bunch or four or five quality players might be the fastest way forward. We don't need one or two superstars, we need 30 goodish players.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 24, 2017, 08:18:25 am
Geez mate, I understand the discussion around Gibbs and Murphy but I don't agree that Kreuzer is also in their basket.
He might not be in the very best ruckmen in the comp for his tapwork but only had to look at this week to see how important he is to our midfield group.
A non negotiable i have as a supporter and member is to see 100% effort - Every game and from every player.
I sometimes watch Gibbs and know I'm not getting it and Murphy while better in this department sometimes still leaves me wondering if he could go in harder, tackle more chase harder etc.....Kreuzer however busts his nut for 120 mins in every game he plays. I love the big fella and wish we had a list full of players with his heart.
Should not be in this discussion.
100% correct Shawny. To be critical of he or any other player for not living up to pick no 1 expectations is nonsense, they didn't pick themselves at 1, clubs did. If everyone on our list put in like Kreuzer does, we would win more games that's for sure.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: LP on April 24, 2017, 08:38:50 am
100% correct Shawny. To be critical of he or any other player for not living up to pick no 1 expectations is nonsense, they didn't pick themselves at 1, clubs did. If everyone on our list put in like Kreuzer does, we would win more games that's for sure.
Plenty of No.1 picks never make it to the level of Gibbs, Murphy and Kreuzer, they are fine the supporters are the problem.
Have a look at the stats, in most games this season the 1st or 2nd year kids are all in the bottom half of the analysis. Murphy, Gibbs and Kreuzer are all in the top half and comfortably so. The kids don't even out rate Daisy who is not as effective as Murphy and Gibbs!
Stats are not subject to someone's opinion. For example Kreuzer gets lambasted on here and other websites for not being a winning tap ruckmen. Liam Jones was lambasted on various forums for not beating Meesen in taps on Saturday's VFL broadcast. But reality is in their most recent games we either won or broke even in Taps to Advantage which means the 2nd efforts from those players are far more important than just the taps alone.
Gibbs gets judge a lot by TV supporters, go to game and watch him exclusively, the guy is elite at dealing with and defeating direct opponents. He is easily as good as Dangerfield, Greenwood, Cotchin, Mitchell, etc, etc.. His problem is he doesn't have another 4 or 5 effective mids around him sharing the load, and he doesn't have breakaway highlight reel pace. Cripps doesn't count as a load share because he's too slow and isn't involved in lead-up plays or the spread. Murphy is mostly an outside player, but a very good one. The only players who come close to giving Gibbs a chop-out are the Curnows and one is consumed by tagging and the other is a beginner.
So I can hear the "Can't hit targets" argument building.
To hit a target you have to know where and when the target will be so you can kick the ball in the right spot, with the right strength and elevation. That comes with familiarity, consistency and predictability from the forward of which we currently have zero! Don't swallow that BT media bullcrap about kicking to where they want the forward to lead, that's rubbish because you obviously cannot kick to a place the forward can't or won't get to in time! So what happens, the kicks are more often than not directed to locations that are safely within reach of the forward, and the defender!
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: BluePhantom on April 24, 2017, 09:03:08 am
Weitering has 2nd year blues, they all get it because it is caused by the opposition not the player.
If you think this year is bad, think about having 5 or 6 débutantes with 2nd year blues next season! :o
The more we keep turning over the harder it will be to climb the ladder. We need players to get to 4 or 5 years, still be interested in playing for the club and be contracted before we can even dream of some success.
It why I argue against removing too many old heads at once, and why trading out Cripps and Weitering to bring in another bunch or four or five quality players might be the fastest way forward. We don't need one or two superstars, we need 30 goodish players.
Well why didn't we bring in a couple of older heads last draft (Barlow?) Saying we are too young then trading out two soon to be SUPERSTARS is crazy. I wouldn't be putting Weiters and Cripps in the same basket as Smurph and Squibbs. Right from the start we all saw that these two couldn't take a game by the scruff of it's neck and change it's course. And we have spoken about it ever since. Crippa and Weiters on the other hand, I know it's early days but these guys are good and to trade them I think we would lose a lot of members. These are two players to build the future around because all Carlton talks about is the future and the past. For the last 15 years there has been no Present, no Now. We are too far into changing course from this rebuild so we may as just keep going HOPING it is the correct course of action because everything else we have tried turned to poo. The trading of Smurph and Squibbs would be in the Bulldogs trading of their stars a couple of years ago category. Soul changing stuff, Culture changing stuff AND this is what we need. Something still stinks at Carlton, maybe it's from what we were cooking but something else needs to change. It could be culture It could be leadership It could be the pre game routines (how many games have we not shown up to in the first quarter?) Need a good old fashion fire up. Oh wait, that might hurt someones feelings from all the yelling. ::) Not sure what it is but I'm tired of pretty boys with no mongrel playing for my footy club. Think of past players we had and if they were playing for some else we would've hated them because they were so tough and played on the edge. (Johnston, Williams) Who do we have now? Why do you think the Dawks were feared? Bloody errant elbows from you know who and they always tackled to hurt. When was the last time you saw a Carlton player intently hurt an opposition player. Rhys Jones? Spanner has touched on something here and it needs exploring. Because you watch, when Squibbs goes to Adelaide he will become the player we all know he is capable of. Then the AFL will see some non racial Booing >:(
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: flyboy77 on April 24, 2017, 09:29:39 am
Trading Cripps/Weitering. wtf!?
Wow, that would be a quick way to destroy whats left of this once mighty Club....
Agreed, if the price is right, trade Gibbs, Muphy and Kreuzer so long as the replacements are better!!
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: DJC on April 24, 2017, 10:39:45 am
When was the last time you saw a Carlton player intently hurt an opposition player. Rhys Jones?
I'd say that would be when Gibbs got done for a sling tackle.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Professer E on April 24, 2017, 11:03:35 am
Gibbs has admitted in the past to perhaps not giving his footy 100% commitment, and his apparent lack of intensity at times drive many supporter nuts. Yep, decent trade and he's gawn.
Good luck on Touhy for doing well at Geelong.... easier to play there with than with us ATM. But Frankly, he played full seasons in 2015 and 2016 and although winning a coaches team gong, he didn't impress and his running around for us this year would have not made one iota of difference to the results thus far (other than keeping MacCreadie or Williamson out). I guess the question is why he failed to deliver his best with us and had to go elsewhere to show it; when he played with us he looked like Tarzan and played like Jane. I've never seen such a heavy-bodied player so easily beaten by small marking opponents, once the ball is above his eye line he panics.
BTW DJC, of the current crew Cripps is not adverse to sinking the shoulder in when tackling. In the game that Gibbs slung that player, every Port player that tried to square up got Crippered and they didn't like it.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: LP on April 24, 2017, 11:13:18 am
Well why didn't we bring in a couple of older heads last draft (Barlow?)
We don't want to bring in old players, the problem isn't bringing in young players, it is not bringing in enough of the young players in a short enough period of time. But they need VFL time under serious development coaches to mature correctly.
Saying we are too young then trading out two soon to be SUPERSTARS is crazy.
Those two get us at least another 4 or more very early draft picks that can be used on more quality kids as opposed to recycled types.
Trading out Gibbs, Murphy and Kreuzer might get you a very late 1st Rnd or early 2nd Rnd picks, but not much more, no compensation and no opportunity to draft decent kids. You'll end up with more Palmer types. No club is going to offer us much for Gibbs given they know he wants to leave for SA, there won't be any competition for his signature. Murphy is too injury prone and too old to attract much attention, as is Kreuzer and his injuries. People who think they have trade value that will get you a bunch of low draft picks are kidding themselves!
I wouldn't be putting Weiters and Cripps in the same basket as Smurph and Squibbs. Right from the start we all saw that these two couldn't take a game by the scruff of it's neck and change it's course. And we have spoken about it ever since.
That's rubbish, between them Murphy and Gibbs have almost got us into late finals. You are imagining things if you think people were negative about them from day one! Your use of derogatory terms exposes your prejudice!
Crippa and Weiters on the other hand, I know it's early days but these guys are good and to trade them I think we would lose a lot of members. These are two players to build the future around because all Carlton talks about is the future and the past. For the last 15 years there has been no Present, no Now. We are too far into changing course from this rebuild so we may as just keep going HOPING it is the correct course of action because everything else we have tried turned to poo.
I'm talking about accelerating the change, not changing direction. We need GWS style youth recruitment. If we don't the rebuild will be so slow those blokes will be gone, stripped away by better offers, before we see a result! Why wait for that to happen, start a bidding war for them now, while they are still hot property before our club destroys what value they have!
The trading of Smurph and Squibbs would be in the Bulldogs trading of their stars a couple of years ago category. Soul changing stuff, Culture changing stuff AND this is what we need. Something still stinks at Carlton, maybe it's from what we were cooking but something else needs to change. It could be culture It could be leadership It could be the pre game routines (how many games have we not shown up to in the first quarter?) Need a good old fashion fire up. Oh wait, that might hurt someones feelings from all the yelling. ::)
Not at all, the Bulldogs had a list full of already talented youth that struggled under an unwanted coach. They basically offloaded or lost a couple of blokes replaced with Boyd and some draft picks. If we do that we'll have wasted money because one KPP and an old bloke like Crameri isn't going to help us!
Not sure what it is but I'm tired of pretty boys with no mongrel playing for my footy club. Think of past players we had and if they were playing for some else we would've hated them because they were so tough and played on the edge. (Johnston, Williams) Who do we have now? Why do you think the Dawks were feared? Bloody errant elbows from you know who and they always tackled to hurt. When was the last time you saw a Carlton player intently hurt an opposition player. Rhys Jones?
Tell that to Mitch Robinson, apparently we don't want that type!
Wasn't it interesting to hear Tim Cahill's assessment of Melbourne City pitiful exit,
Spanner has touched on something here and it needs exploring. Because you watch, when Squibbs goes to Adelaide he will become the player we all know he is capable of. Then the AFL will see some non racial Booing >:(
That says more about our club, our list and our coaches than the players. Perhaps it says something about our fan base as well, why would anyone want to put in for a club when all that comes back at them is the sort of derogatory rubbish we seen in recent weeks? Don't give me the money argument, we don't even pay that well! ;)
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 24, 2017, 11:27:35 am
I wouldnt get too excited about the trade offerings for Gibbs and Murphy......if the Crows win the flag then they wont want Gibbs and Murphy will be 30 going into next season and I dont see clubs paying a premium for him either...
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: LP on April 24, 2017, 11:30:54 am
I wouldnt get too excited about the trade offerings for Gibbs and Murphy......if the Crows win the flag then they wont want Gibbs and Murphy will be 30 going into next season and I dont see clubs paying a premium for him either...
This is exactly my point EB1, but they are quite valuable/useful to our club in that they can be used to buy the kids some time to develop.
We just need far more kids developing at both levels, a couple of good ones per draft period isn't going to cut it! We'll most likely lose blokes like Cripps or Weitering before the list develops around them.
I think we made a mistake talking Simmo into another season, not because he can't in fact without him we'd be cooked, but because we need another body in the midfield rotation and he's not that sort of option. In Tuohy's absence I was half expecting to see Docherty and Plowman getting midfield runs this year, but for whatever reason it isn't eventuating which leaves me perplexed about our list and coaching strategy.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: JonHenry on April 24, 2017, 12:16:52 pm
I wouldnt get too excited about the trade offerings for Gibbs and Murphy......if the Crows win the flag then they wont want Gibbs and Murphy will be 30 going into next season and I dont see clubs paying a premium for him either...
That's a big if. What if they fall short and the perception is they need one more quality mid but didn't do the deal when they had the chance? You don't get many cracks at it and if you are close, you need to put the finishing touches on your list. They obviously think he is of value or they wouldn't have had a crack last year.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 24, 2017, 12:45:31 pm
Gibbs has admitted in the past to perhaps not giving his footy 100% commitment, and his apparent lack of intensity at times drive many supporter nuts. Yep, decent trade and he's gawn.
Good luck on Touhy for doing well at Geelong.... easier to play there with than with us ATM. But Frankly, he played full seasons in 2015 and 2016 and although winning a coaches team gong, he didn't impress and his running around for us this year would have not made one iota of difference to the results thus far (other than keeping MacCreadie or Williamson out). I guess the question is why he failed to deliver his best with us and had to go elsewhere to show it; when he played with us he looked like Tarzan and played like Jane. I've never seen such a heavy-bodied player so easily beaten by small marking opponents, once the ball is above his eye line he panics.
BTW DJC, of the current crew Cripps is not adverse to sinking the shoulder in when tackling. In the game that Gibbs slung that player, every Port player that tried to square up got Crippered and they didn't like it.
My understanding is that Cripps gave Lewis a good little clip behind the ear before he whacked him in the jaw.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: LP on April 24, 2017, 12:50:01 pm
That's a big if. What if they fall short and the perception is they need one more quality mid but didn't do the deal when they had the chance? You don't get many cracks at it and if you are close, you need to put the finishing touches on your list. They obviously think he is of value or they wouldn't have had a crack last year.
I think the way Sloane is playing has already diminished Gibbs value, Gibbs would almost be a backup there now with the way Hampton, Laird, Crouch x 2 and Atkins are playing!
You'd think to get Gibbs the Crows would have to let one of that group go, which one do you think they'd be willing to part with now to get hold of a 29 year old?
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: BluePhantom on April 24, 2017, 04:56:19 pm
That's a big if. What if they fall short and the perception is they need one more quality mid but didn't do the deal when they had the chance? You don't get many cracks at it and if you are close, you need to put the finishing touches on your list. They obviously think he is of value or they wouldn't have had a crack last year.
Their younger mids have stepped up, Gibbs is a year older and in share terms is trading on a high PE ratio and is overvalued..... Lewis got three years with Melbourne, is a proven better player than Gibbs and the trade value for Hawthorn was pitiful.....
Crouch Bros had 30 plus possies each vs GC, Atkins had 29....IMO Gibbs will be lucky to get another big offer from the Crows..... And anyone doubting Mick Barlows abilities to help the likes of Cripps he had 36 possies in a team that were pumped by the best team in the comp...
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Gointocarlton on April 24, 2017, 05:39:24 pm
And right on cue: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/collingwood/adam-treloar-is-the-afls-turnover-king/news-story/504bfcd6d3a0dfb57aeffbce278537d4
Its interesting when you look at figures like this how many top liners appear in the list.
MOST CLANGER + INEFFECTIVE KICKS Dustin Martin 40 Bryce Gibbs 34 Adam Treloar 33 Andrew Gaff 33 Dayne Zorko 31 Marc Murphy 31 Zach Merrett 31 Gary Ablett 31 Dylan Shiel 30 Trent Cotchin 29
MOST TURNOVERS Adam Treloar 28 Tom Mitchell 28 Matt Crouch 26 Taylor Adams 25 Dustin Martin 24 Nathan Jones 24 Jake Lloyd 24 Patrick Dangerfield 24 Zach Merrett 24 Marc Murphy 29
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on April 24, 2017, 05:42:15 pm
And right on cue: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/collingwood/adam-treloar-is-the-afls-turnover-king/news-story/504bfcd6d3a0dfb57aeffbce278537d4
Its interesting when you look at figures like this how many top liners appear in the list.
MOST CLANGER + INEFFECTIVE KICKS Dustin Martin 40 Bryce Gibbs 34 Adam Treloar 33 Andrew Gaff 33 Dayne Zorko 31 Marc Murphy 31 Zach Merrett 31 Gary Ablett 31 Dylan Shiel 30 Trent Cotchin 29
MOST TURNOVERS Adam Treloar 28 Tom Mitchell 28 Matt Crouch 26 Taylor Adams 25 Dustin Martin 24 Nathan Jones 24 Jake Lloyd 24 Patrick Dangerfield 24 Zach Merrett 24 Marc Murphy 29
Those are the players that tend to have the most disposals for their respective teams, so not necessarily a surprise. I'd be interested to see the disposal efficiency for these players, and whether there is any correlation between higher DE and more successful teams.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on April 24, 2017, 05:47:36 pm
The other thing that would be interesting is to see these stats on a team-wide basis i.e which team has the most clangers, ineffective kicks and turnovers, which would give a clear picture of whether the malaise is team wide, or restricted to certain individuals. This would give an idea of the connection between sender and receiver, and the understanding that exists (or doesn't) between players.
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on April 24, 2017, 05:52:39 pm
Wow, that would be a quick way to destroy whats left of this once mighty Club....
Agreed, if the price is right, trade Gibbs, Muphy and Kreuzer so long as the replacements are better!!
Agree...going trade crazy hoping to pick up 4 picks for 2 stars of the future for example etc is not only soul destroying for supporters but not playing the odds.. We need to get Cripps some help because he is banged up and doing all the heavy lifting and Weitering needs a rest and returned to CHB where he can learn more about senior footy and get some confidence back in a position he knows better than most and be the leader we expect him to be... We turned Andrew Walker into a banged up no position to call his own player by trouble shooting every problem we had with him and I fear Weitering will get the same treatment. Time to ditch the Weitering swingman idea and give the kid a break, we have a 204cm CHF in the VFL doing well....where is the logic in seeing Weitering smashed each week and now some want to trade him out because he isnt doing so well... >:( SOS should have got Cripps some help and recruited at least one more big bodied mid, the signs were there last season he was sore and its been a list management mistake...
Title: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Micky0 on April 24, 2017, 05:58:42 pm
Let's all calm down.
Trading Weitering and Cripps will Lose CFC a huge amount of members - including my family.
We look to have recuited well let's just all take a deep breath and see how the year pans out.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Spanner on July 30, 2017, 02:08:46 am
Gee the Gibbs/Murphy dynamic duo have really shown their worth since Cripps has been injured.
F*cking disgrace the pair of them. Who saw Murphy sh*t himself fearing contact to then cough up a hand ball in panic to basically hand Geelong their first goal. Soft C*CK extraordinaire!
Can't wait until both these guys are no longer at the club. I'm over their piss poor effort and selective attitude.
Murphy should also be stripped of the captaincy. He's not a captain's arsehole...
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: sandsmere on July 30, 2017, 05:47:54 am
Gee the Gibbs/Murphy dynamic duo have really shown their worth since Cripps has been injured.
F*cking disgrace the pair of them. Who saw Murphy sh*t himself fearing contact to then cough up a hand ball in panic to basically hand Geelong their first goal. Soft C*CK extraordinaire!
Can't wait until both these guys are no longer at the club. I'm over their piss poor effort and selective attitude.
Murphy should also be stripped of the captaincy. He's not a captain's arsehole...
Go back to Bomberblitz you grub.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: madbluboy on July 30, 2017, 07:15:30 am
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: mateinone on July 30, 2017, 07:53:27 am
The last chance to get something decent for Murphy was last year. Murphy is MUCH better than most people give him credit for. He isn't Dangerfield or Judd or the likes, but has consistently been a performer and would be close to winning out B&F again this year. But he is 30 now and you rarely see a top pick being spent on a 30+ year old.
Bryce is 28 and still has value, he would be still rated very highly at Adelaide and I think they would expect him to come in and be in their top 2 midfielders still.
I still think we should have gone crazy with selling off the older players last year, but the boat has been missed a little (imo).
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: BluePhantom on July 30, 2017, 08:10:23 am
Gee the Gibbs/Murphy dynamic duo have really shown their worth since Cripps has been injured.
F*cking disgrace the pair of them. Who saw Murphy sh*t himself fearing contact to then cough up a hand ball in panic to basically hand Geelong their first goal. Soft C*CK extraordinaire!
Can't wait until both these guys are no longer at the club. I'm over their piss poor effort and selective attitude.
Murphy should also be stripped of the captaincy. He's not a captain's arsehole...
I saw that in the first qtr and thought similar thoughts. I think you are right but need to take the emotion out of your argument. We are heading into a new era and so therefore still need to cut ties with the old and Murphy being Capt is part of that. Yes he has tried but never raised to the lofty standards we wanted. Maybe injuries, his body size, his attitude and even the players around him didn't provide the Capt we expect. Some games he was good but more often than not. .... So you are right a new Capt is required and on form and body language Crippa is the only choice. Doullherty is just that, just like the great man he is always there and rarely makes a mistake but lacks that presence that aurora, that something that Cripps has. Don't get me wrong, I looove Doullherty but not as Capt, would be better as Vice Capt. Keep Murph, don't trade. Gibbs, bloody Gibbs! One week he lifts heaven and earth but the next week barely lifts a finger. When he wants to he is hot but more often than not, he is not. He will play well in a good side because he is the cream when other players do the heavy lifting. If he was a good roll model, I would say keep but it appears he is not. So trade for a couple of decent players that want to bleed for the jumper.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Professer E on July 30, 2017, 08:25:31 am
In the midfield you have blokes playing a number of roles. There are first handlers... the blokes who win the ball at the coal face and get it out under intense pressure (a la Cripps, Mitchell x2, Priddis, Selwood, Kennedy, Martin etc) , first and second receivers, blockers and outside distributors.
Gibbs is one of the best first receivers in the game, but when he is forced to win the initial pill from the contest stoppage he is hopeless. Cripps lets the others play their part, without Cripps the possession chain breaks down.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: townsendcalling on July 30, 2017, 08:33:57 am
Don't underestimate the absence of both Cripps AND Ed Curnow at the moment. Curnow' ability to stop a player and win his own ball these days , has been invaluable. When you lose you extractor and the guy who makes sure their main man ain't getting the clearsnce, then you are heading for Struggle Street.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2017, 08:43:11 am
Gee the Gibbs/Murphy dynamic duo have really shown their worth since Cripps has been injured.
F*cking disgrace the pair of them. Who saw Murphy sh*t himself fearing contact to then cough up a hand ball in panic to basically hand Geelong their first goal. Soft C*CK extraordinaire!
Can't wait until both these guys are no longer at the club. I'm over their piss poor effort and selective attitude.
Murphy should also be stripped of the captaincy. He's not a captain's arsehole...
I dont recall him cacking himself, rather he dished over a HB to his right instead of his left where we appeared to have runners free. Yes the HB missed the target, TO occured and a goal to Geel. But lets put last night into perspective. They are 2nd and we are 17th for a reason and its not because of Gibbs and Murphy. The smashed us all over the park, even Kruze who is in AA contention got hammered by Smith. They did everything so much better than us across the board, thats the difference.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2017, 09:05:25 am
In his post match presser, Bolton emphasized that with our young list and injuries, guys like Murph and Gibbs are carrying a heavy load, particularly through the midfield.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Micky0 on July 30, 2017, 09:18:48 am
I watched Murph in the last - he doesn't stop - he was also tagged heavily and blocked off the ball - that would have to wear you down near the end of a tough season, coming after years of tough seasons. And I like him - I think he does BLEED blue.
Gibbs I watched and I don't know why he does this - but if he's going after an opponent and they get rid of the ball, he keeps at them to push them rather than go to the next contest - so he's expending energy for no reason, there's no real effect because he doesn't push the guy much, just a nudge - and he gets caught out. I saw him do it time and again.
Maybe it was just frustration on Gibbs' part, but it just seemed like a waste of time and energy to me.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: pinot on July 30, 2017, 09:38:07 am
Murphy and Gibbs will still demand decent picks
They are both great talents that need more support in the middle which they don't have.
Alas their leadership is substandard we need to rebuild the midfield and the leadership within that midfield. Which we have not had since Judd and Carrazzo retired
I think we need to move them on and rebuild
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: madbluboy on July 30, 2017, 09:49:38 am
In his post match presser, Bolton emphasized that with our young list and injuries, guys like Murph and Gibbs are carrying a heavy load, particularly through the midfield.
I think the problem is as number 1 picks we expect them to be elite and in Murphy's case he was earlier in his career. We just have to accept them as B+ players or ship them out.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: flyboy77 on July 30, 2017, 09:51:18 am
Murphy to GWS as part of a trade for Kelly & Hopper. Sell it to Smurf as the chance to win a flag before his time's up....
Gibbs to Crows/Port for Ollie Wines or high picks...
Ben Saunders taken as a low (3rd/4th rd) draft pick.
Cripps or Doc as Captain.
Worse case, if Murphy stays, he's not Captain. I don't think he enjoys the role tbh.
Not sure how it all gets done but we need significant change 'at the top'....
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2017, 10:09:44 am
I watched Murph in the last - he doesn't stop - he was also tagged heavily and blocked off the ball - that would have to wear you down near the end of a tough season, coming after years of tough seasons. And I like him - I think he does BLEED blue.
Gibbs I watched and I don't know why he does this - but if he's going after an opponent and they get rid of the ball, he keeps at them to push them rather than go to the next contest - so he's expending energy for no reason, there's no real effect because he doesn't push the guy much, just a nudge - and he gets caught out. I saw him do it time and again.
Maybe it was just frustration on Gibbs' part, but it just seemed like a waste of time and energy to me.
Its a tactic alot of our players use, watch them, its an instruction as far as I can see. Its to stop the opponent getting to the next contest. Too often in the past Ive seen 1-2 plays and we just watch. Now, we seem to block the guy from getting another involvement in the next play. I see too many other of our blokes do it to suggest its a Gibbs thing. Watch our blokes manning the mark from on a oppo kick in. As soon as he kicks it, man on the mark goes and blocks his run.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 30, 2017, 10:12:21 am
Don't underestimate the absence of both Cripps AND Ed Curnow at the moment. Curnow' ability to stop a player and win his own ball these days , has been invaluable. When you lose you extractor and the guy who makes sure their main man ain't getting the clearsnce, then you are heading for Struggle Street.
Interesting to see Ed in the grandstanding writing down notes in note pad.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: pinot on July 30, 2017, 10:14:30 am
Murphy - Gold Coast on four year contract @ $800k = Pick 19 + 23 Gibbs - Adelaide pick 17 + player Casboult - (hypothetical) pick 25
Take to draft - Pick 2, 17, 19, 23, 25, 38
Draft Ranking
2 = Uniacke 17 = Petrucelle 19 = Lachlan Fogarty 23 = James Worpel 25 = Hunter Clark 37 = the best available slider
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: blue4life on July 30, 2017, 10:19:08 am
Not sure how it all gets done but we need significant change 'at the top'....
I don't agree. Any side will struggle without two of their best four midfielders, especially a young side in year two of a four year rebuild. Our problem isn't our top six or eight players, it's our bottom six or eight.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: flyboy77 on July 30, 2017, 10:19:25 am
Good size....
14. Toby Wooller (VIC) Best position: Key forward/inside midfield Height, weight: 193cm, 90kg Recruited from: Oakleigh Projected draft range: first to second round Similar to: Charlie Curnow May Ranking: 11 Rationale: Strong performer as a key forward and through the midfield. Strengths: Clean at ground level Agility Acceleration Reading of ruck taps Wins contested ball in close Scoreboard impact Equally comfortable forward or through the midfield Reading of ball in flight Weaknesses: Presence up forward
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: BluePhantom on July 30, 2017, 10:25:43 am
I don't agree. Any side will struggle without two of their best four midfielders, especially a young side in year two of a four year rebuild. Our problem isn't our top six or eight players, it's our bottom six or eight.
I don't expect them to win a game for us like yesterday, with all the outs it was virtually impossible for us to eek out a win. However, I do expect the leaders to lead from the front, support and protect the younguns. Maybe they do do it but it is certainly not visible.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: JonHenry on July 30, 2017, 10:34:42 am
I don't agree. Any side will struggle without two of their best four midfielders, especially a young side in year two of a four year rebuild. Our problem isn't our top six or eight players, it's our bottom six or eight.
I don't agree. We need to add 3x quality players to our midfield. It just doesn't stack up against the best sides as soon as one player is out. The reason, we have far too many one dimensional players. Our mids don't tackle, harass and chase well at all.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: blue4life on July 30, 2017, 11:03:30 am
I don't agree. We need to add 3x quality players to our midfield. It just doesn't stack up against the best sides as soon as one player is out. The reason, we have far too many one dimensional players. Our mids don't tackle, harass and chase well at all.
There's no argument from me about any of that, my point is that the three midfielders we add would replace Kerridge and Graham and allow Gibbs to play outside where he's better suited, there's no need to replace Murphy or Gibbs who are both very good footballers in my opinion. We have to accept some pain while Petrevski-Seton, Fisher and Cunningham develop and Cripps and Curnow are unavailable.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: JonHenry on July 30, 2017, 11:13:10 am
There's no argument from me about any of that, my point is that the three midfielders we add would replace Kerridge and Graham and allow Gibbs to play outside where he's better suited, there's no need to replace Murphy or Gibbs who are both very good footballers in my opinion. We have to accept some pain while Petrevski-Seton, Fisher and Cunningham develop and Cripps and Curnow are unavailable.
These 3 players have to appear from somewhere. We aren't drafting 3 champions any time soon or taking a Dusty type player unless we give something up. We need to be realistic. Murphy and Gibbs have had a good go. Just not elite. Time to move forward
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2017, 11:15:02 am
I think the problem is as number 1 picks we expect them to be elite and in Murphy's case he was earlier in his career. We just have to accept them as B+ players or ship them out.
That's true - despite the protestations of some on here, neither of them could have possibly flimflammed so many different regimes and senior coaches over more than 10 years. They've had Pagan, Ratten, Malthouse, Barker and Bolton, and neither has ever been dropped to the 2's, neither has ever been put up for trade, neither has ever had their effort or endeavor or professionalism called into question. I don't believe they could have survived under such circumstances if they didn't have something to offer.
Whilst they're not of the calibre of Judd, neither are 95% of blokes that have played the game. It seems churlish to pan them for the club's broader failings.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: kruddler on July 30, 2017, 11:23:02 am
I think the problem is as number 1 picks we expect them to be elite and in Murphy's case he was earlier in his career. We just have to accept them as B+ players or ship them out.
Murphy was leading all kinds of rankings earlier this year. Including better than Danger, Martin etc.
Gibbs had a purple patch that was on a par with anything that Ablett and Danger has done.
Problem we have with the above is the consistency as much as anything.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 30, 2017, 11:33:05 am
Murphy was leading all kinds of rankings earlier this year. Including better than Danger, Martin etc.
Gibbs had a purple patch that was on a par with anything that Ablett and Danger has done.
Problem we have with the above is the consistency as much as anything.
Murphy doesnt impact or win games....Gibbs does every now and then but not like Danger, Martin etc.... Gibbs had his patch thats true but thats been his career...4-5 games at A Grade level every season and then back to being a B grader....
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Lods on July 30, 2017, 11:44:26 am
When a full squad is up and running everyone has a job. Cripps has one, Gibbs and Murphy have one, Curnow usually takes a tagging role on one of the opposition midfielders. A player like Cripps draws a lot of attention from the opposition. If he goes down that attention switches to the next most dangerous tier....Gibbs and Murphy. If Curnow goes down a dangerous opposition midfielder also enters the equation. Gibbs and Murphy now not only have to do their own jobs but they need to pick up the slack left by the absences....and they have to do it under increased opposition scrutiny.
One soldier out, another in....but our problem is the replacements are still in cadets.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on July 30, 2017, 11:59:24 am
When a full squad is up and running everyone has a job. Cripps has one, Gibbs and Murphy have one, Curnow usually takes a tagging role on one of the opposition midfielders. A player like Cripps draws a lot of attention from the opposition. If he goes down that attention switches to the next most dangerous tier....Gibbs and Murphy. If Curnow goes down a dangerous opposition midfielder also enters the equation. Gibbs and Murphy now not only have to do their own jobs but they need to pick up the slack left by the absences....and they have to do it under increased opposition scrutiny.
One soldier out, another in....but our problem is the replacements are still in cadets.
You also have to look at the effect of the players Gibbs and Murphy play on and what damage they do...often their opponents are allowed to run around rack up 30 possies themselves No use Murphy and Gibbs getting 30 possies if Pendlebury, Treloar, Sidebottom as an example get the same for the opposition etc and by virtue of being better users of the ball impact the game more... You often look at the stats and see Murphy, Gibbs with high numbers but then look at the opposing teams mids who have about 5 players with similar numbers....Scott Selwood had more ball than Gibbs yet people say Gibbs went well and gave him votes even though Scott Selwood was his direct opponent for most of the night..
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: blue4life on July 30, 2017, 01:33:09 pm
It's the lot of supporters of lower teams to criticise their best players and always has been.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: laj on July 30, 2017, 01:34:48 pm
These 3 players have to appear from somewhere. We aren't drafting 3 champions any time soon or taking a Dusty type player unless we give something up. We need to be realistic. Murphy and Gibbs have had a good go. Just not elite. Time to move forward
Our midfield of 2019 might already be at the club, add Cripps and Curnow to last night then 18 months and two pre seasons of development into Petrevski-Seton, Fisher and Cunningham. Petrevski-Seton has exceeded all expectations for a first year player, especially one with no pre season, Fisher looks like a definite long term prospect and Cunningham has solid foot skills, clean hands and more capacity to build body strength than the other two. This rebuild was never going to happen overnight, it will take another couple of years minimum and there'll be some pain along the way but if we draft and trade well this year and next there's no reason why we can't go deep into September in 2020.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2017, 02:15:38 pm
We've had more 1st round picks than any club over the last 15 years, and if we're not No 1, we would be 2 or 3. We've had first dibs on plenty of talent recently. And yet here we are, 17th with a few games left.
High end talent is not the answer. Been there done that. I look at the Hawks, Cats and Swans, and I want what they have, i.e to be able to stay competitive, without bottoming out. Those clubs haven't had many 1st rounders over the last few years, and yet they seem to pluck decent, AFL ready players from somewhere. I watched the Hawks Swans game on the weekend, and marveled at the number of names I'd never heard before, marveled at how they looked big and able to deliver AFL quality footy.
Bottoming out stinks to high heaven, and once you've been down there too long, it's very hard to get back up. The Dees have taken an eternity to look decent. I fear we may end up following them, rather than the 3 I mentioned.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: blue4life on July 30, 2017, 02:42:21 pm
We've had more 1st round picks than any club over the last 15 years, and if we're not No 1, we would be 2 or 3. We've had first dibs on plenty of talent recently. And yet here we are, 17th with a few games left.
You need to look further than first round picks, how many of our second, third and fourth rounders from 2008 to 2014 are still at the club? Add to that first round bomb outs like Watson, Bootsma, Lucas, Menzel, Yarran and Boekhorst and it isn't hard to see why we are where we are. Geelong's great sides had Enright, Hunt, Chapman, Johnson, Ling and Rooke all taken at pick 25 or lower and they got Harley for virtually nothing.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2017, 02:47:08 pm
You need to look further than first round picks, how many of our second, third and fourth rounders from 2008 to 2014 are still at the club? Add to that first round bomb outs like Watson, Bootsma, Lucas, Yarran and Boekhorst and it isn't hard to see why we are where we are.
Where we are now can be summarized in 2 words - bad decisions - across all fronts, coaching appointments and sackings, player recruiting and player movement in and out, the board, questionable development program. All based one bad decision after another.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on July 30, 2017, 02:48:46 pm
You need to look further than first round picks, how many of our second, third and fourth rounders from 2008 to 2014 are still at the club? Add to that first round bomb outs like Watson, Bootsma, Lucas, Yarran and Boekhorst and it isn't hard to see why we are where we are. Geelong's great sides had Enright, Hunt, Chapman, Johnson, Ling and Rooke all taken at pick 25 or lower.
This is my point. I don't want us trading out players to get back into the top end of the draft. Either because it doesn't work, or because we're no good at it.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: blue4life on July 30, 2017, 02:49:11 pm
Where we are now can be summarized in 2 words - bad decisions - across all fronts, coaching appointments and sackings, player recruiting and player movement in and out, the board, questionable development program. All based one bad decision after another.
And it can all be traced back to Elliott, but there's no use crying about it now.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: laj on July 30, 2017, 07:30:45 pm
We've had more 1st round picks than any club over the last 15 years, and if we're not No 1, we would be 2 or 3. We've had first dibs on plenty of talent recently. And yet here we are, 17th with a few games left.
High end talent is not the answer. Been there done that. I look at the Hawks, Cats and Swans, and I want what they have, i.e to be able to stay competitive, without bottoming out. Those clubs haven't had many 1st rounders over the last few years, and yet they seem to pluck decent, AFL ready players from somewhere. I watched the Hawks Swans game on the weekend, and marveled at the number of names I'd never heard before, marveled at how they looked big and able to deliver AFL quality footy.
Bottoming out stinks to high heaven, and once you've been down there too long, it's very hard to get back up. The Dees have taken an eternity to look decent. I fear we may end up following them, rather than the 3 I mentioned.
Every side gets a first round pick and usually they are good. It's what you do with your 2nd, 3rd and 4th round picks etc...decides when you win a flag or not. We've been putrid at it.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Thryleon on July 30, 2017, 10:12:45 pm
You also have to look at the effect of the players Gibbs and Murphy play on and what damage they do...often their opponents are allowed to run around rack up 30 possies themselves No use Murphy and Gibbs getting 30 possies if Pendlebury, Treloar, Sidebottom as an example get the same for the opposition etc and by virtue of being better users of the ball impact the game more... You often look at the stats and see Murphy, Gibbs with high numbers but then look at the opposing teams mids who have about 5 players with similar numbers....Scott Selwood had more ball than Gibbs yet people say Gibbs went well and gave him votes even though Scott Selwood was his direct opponent for most of the night..
Scott selwood is whom they got to scrag Gibbs whilst Gibbs spent most of his time trying to get to either Joel Selwood or danger when he went into the stoppages. Scott was just interfering and wasn't Gibbs matchup opponent.
Either way our issues lie with the fact that two of our mids get good numbers and the rest are on L plates and only get it 15-20 times. Our opposition regularly get players with 25+ and hitting the scoreboard.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: LoveNavy on July 30, 2017, 10:30:24 pm
In a word. Depth.
We're swimming against the tide. About 1/4 of the list is injured :( I think our lack of depth may have seen players back too soon after injury. See ASOS and Byrne, possibly White and Gorringe too. To make it worse, ex-blues Eddie and Touhy are playing 100+ consecutive games. Durability is something we don't have enough of at present.
Having said that. It's good to see previously injury prone players coming along. Pickett and Smedts for example. Here's hoping their woes are behind them.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: DJC on July 31, 2017, 08:26:58 am
Scott selwood is whom they got to scrag Gibbs whilst Gibbs spent most of his time trying to get to either Joel Selwood or danger when he went into the stoppages. Scott was just interfering and wasn't Gibbs matchup opponent.
Either way our issues lie with the fact that two of our mids get good numbers and the rest are on L plates and only get it 5-15 times. Our opposition regularly get players with 25+ and hitting the scoreboard.
Nailed it Thry - with one minor correction.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Thryleon on July 31, 2017, 09:14:03 am
It's amazing what you notice at the ground when you stop following the play and start looking at the overall picture.
I noticed that Geelong did what the Western Bulldogs did to us a few weeks ago.
Whenever we were kicking in, they actually gave us the back pockets to kick into and had compacted the rest of their team from the HFF line to the Centre Square Circle, effectively leaving us only a long kick down the line on both wings, or if we were brave enough, the corridor. We only got out when one of our players was brave enough to take the players on, and gain an extra 10-20 metres, before the ground opened up but it was under heavy pressure due to the Cats "flooding forward".
It feels a little as though we have been found out and I'm looking to our coaches to help our boys through it.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: flyboy77 on July 31, 2017, 09:39:11 am
It's amazing what you notice at the ground when you stop following the play and start looking at the overall picture.
I noticed that Geelong did what the Western Bulldogs did to us a few weeks ago.
Whenever we were kicking in, they actually gave us the back pockets to kick into and had compacted the rest of their team from the HFF line to the Centre Square Circle, effectively leaving us only a long kick down the line on both wings, or if we were brave enough, the corridor. We only got out when one of our players was brave enough to take the players on, and gain an extra 10-20 metres, before the ground opened up but it was under heavy pressure due to the Cats "flooding forward".
It feels a little as though we have been found out and I'm looking to our coaches to help our boys through it.
Bolton needs to start working on his Plan Bs and Cs.
He has been caught out many a time with no second option....
I like his teaching mantra but not convinced, far from it, he is the 'Messiah'!
Again on Saturday, we had too many kids out there. Smedts and Palmer should have played....I think Palmer will retire year's end.
And I reiterate Fisher will become a better player long term if he plays in the 2s.....for now.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Thryleon on July 31, 2017, 12:12:06 pm
Bolton needs to start working on his Plan Bs and Cs.
He has been caught out many a time with no second option....
Its a tough gig. Players will learn things faster by repeating the same process, but when teams start nullifying it, is it because we are not executing things as well as we could be?? If we changed things would we hinder the learning process accordingly?? Is the goal not to end up with a team more like 1995's where Parkin empowered our team to kick on and win a flag with minimal coaching??
Quote
I like his teaching mantra but not convinced, far from it, he is the 'Messiah'!
There are no real messiah's. I think we need to appreciate that Bolton and his team have started a journey (to coin a phrase). They are looking at improving, process, procedure and people where possible, and putting systems in place to result in recognisable growth and achievement in our footy club. People are automatically translating that into Premierships, but the reality of that, is that they are bloody hard to win, and require a lot of luck and considerable work to get into a position to achieve it, and measuring people by their ability to achieve that success is increasingly looking like fairly flaky criteria. All we can do is focus on what work is being done, and whether or not we could be doing things better, and putting the systems in place to do as best we can, so that we can look at our work and see what it has yielded as a result. Hopefully culminating in success.
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Again on Saturday, we had too many kids out there. Smedts and Palmer should have played....I think Palmer will retire year's end.
Agree with this, there might be a reason for it, but I can't see it straight away.
Quote
And I reiterate Fisher will become a better player long term if he plays in the 2s.....for now.
This I can't be sure of. The reserves have been pretty poor for 6 weeks now, and like Mckay there might be more gain in him to keep playing him at senior level, particularly if we are rewarding effort.
What I don't quite get is why Nick Graham isn't a walk up start given our current midfield woes, but there might be different thinking in regards to that than a couple of first year recruits.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: LP on July 31, 2017, 03:35:21 pm
It seems our kids haven't learned plan A yet, don't confuse them would be a great policy!
Let's try and avoid doing a Weitering to all of them! :o
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: kruddler on July 31, 2017, 05:16:14 pm
Credit where credit is due.
Fisher has been given kudos for some 'game-high pressure acts' this year. Totals of 24 and 22 pressure acts in a game are 2 i can remember attributed to him.
This week the same stat, game-high pressure acts, has a total of 39. Not Fisher this time, but none other than Marc "He needs to work harder" Murphy.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Lods on July 31, 2017, 05:57:28 pm
Fisher has been given kudos for some 'game-high pressure acts' this year. Totals of 24 and 22 pressure acts in a game are 2 i can remember attributed to him.
This week the same stat, game-high pressure acts, has a total of 39. Not Fisher this time, but none other than Marc "He needs to work harder" Murphy.
....and Levi had 91% disposal efficiency ;D
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: kruddler on July 31, 2017, 06:16:48 pm
Fisher has been given kudos for some 'game-high pressure acts' this year. Totals of 24 and 22 pressure acts in a game are 2 i can remember attributed to him.
This week the same stat, game-high pressure acts, has a total of 39. Not Fisher this time, but none other than Marc "He needs to work harder" Murphy.
They're only stats Krud ;)
It's funny how supporters often see what they want to see and not what is really happening. I reckon Murphy has been busting a gut trying to keep us in games but other folk must see it differently.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: JonHenry on July 31, 2017, 07:52:10 pm
It's funny how supporters often see what they want to see and not what is really happening. I reckon Murphy has been busting a gut trying to keep us in games but other folk must see it differently.
Maybe start looking at the impact instead of the stat sheets and you may see what is really happening. Was it a pressure act, or another missed tackle. Was it a possession or another cheap kick behind play. Stats are valuable but the result and impact far more. If you think Murphy is our answer then so be it.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: LP on July 31, 2017, 07:53:16 pm
It's funny how supporters often see what they want to see and not what is really happening. I reckon Murphy has been busting a gut trying to keep us in games but other folk must see it differently.
I agree DJC it's a bizarre situation, I realise he won't ever be a Hodge type but I don't expect it why would anyone expect it?
That doesn't mean we shouldn't pursue the odd player with Hodge characteristics, just don't expect Murphy or Gibbs to be the man!
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: DJC on July 31, 2017, 08:00:02 pm
Maybe start looking at the impact instead of the stat sheets and you may see what is really happening. Was it a pressure act, or another missed tackle. Was it a possession or another cheap kick behind play. Stats are valuable but the result and impact far more. If you think Murphy is our answer then so be it.
I wasn't looking at the stat sheet, Kruddler mentioned the stats and they matched my observations of what is really happening.
Murphy isn't the answer, but he's not the problem either. The answer is adding midfield depth so that Murphy, Gibbs, Cripps, Samo, Docherty and Curnow are on an equal footing with their direct opponents and not always battling with two or three opponents.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: JonHenry on July 31, 2017, 08:05:21 pm
I wasn't looking at the stat sheet, Kruddler mentioned the stats and they matched my observations of what is really happening.
Murphy isn't the answer, but he's not the problem either. The answer is adding midfield depth so that Murphy, Gibbs, Cripps, Samo, Docherty and Curnow are on an equal footing with their direct opponents and not always battling with two or three opponents.
Murphy is the problem. He's our captain and highest paid player. He strikes little fear either physically or ability wise into our opposition. I agree with you, we need far more midfield depth, but Murphy should not be part of it, but he may get us some picks to help build
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: DJC on July 31, 2017, 08:41:19 pm
Murphy is the problem. He's our captain and highest paid player. He strikes little fear either physically or ability wise into our opposition. I agree with you, we need far more midfield depth, but Murphy should not be part of it, but he may get us some picks to help build
Why then did he have three Geelong players hanging off him for most of the match? The problem is that we have lacked the capacity to protect our best players for far too long.
I'm afraid you're stuck with Murphy; he won't be traded and nor should he be.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: JonHenry on July 31, 2017, 08:43:56 pm
Why then did he have three Geelong players hanging off him for most of the match? The problem is that we have lacked the capacity to protect our best players for far too long.
I'm afraid you're stuck with Murphy; he won't be traded and nor should he be.
And we continue to languish
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Gointocarlton on July 31, 2017, 08:59:19 pm
Why then did he have three Geelong players hanging off him for most of the match? The problem is that we have lacked the capacity to protect our best players for far too long.
I'm afraid you're stuck with Murphy; he won't be traded and nor should he be.
BANG!!!
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: pinot on August 01, 2017, 08:11:21 am
We need to be brave with the rebuild and that comes changing leadership group and trading Gibbs and Murphy and letting Thomas go.
Cripps, Docherty, Kreuzer, Curnow and need two leaders for the forward line.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: LP on August 01, 2017, 08:13:41 am
We need to be brave with the rebuild and that comes changing leadership group and trading Gibbs and Murphy and letting Thomas go.
Cripps, Docherty, Kreuzer, Curnow and need two leaders for the forward line.
Seems more like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.
In the meantime lets go watch the likes of Nick Graham, Sam Kerridge, Blaine Boekhorst, Rhys Palmer and Billie Smedts run around in the AFL every week.
Trading 101. If a player is worth more to you than they will return to you in a trade, then you don't trade said player.
Murphy on the open market, is a 30 year old, classy midfielder who hasn't played a full season in the last 5 years. He will not get us a first round draft pick in return, because longevity will be a concern, AND he isn't the missing link between anyone and a flag.
Gibbs is a 28 year old top 50 midfielder in the AFL who is good at what he does, but is a death by a thousand cuts player who can score 20 goals a season if playing on a HFF. He will not put a team on his back and win a game on his own (actually he is good for one or two of these games a season PROVIDED he has others around him contributing) but is an accumulator who is better when playing without an opponent as that way he gets more time to use the ball. He would complement the Tigers Midfield and aside from that, would be an also ran in most other midfields. I estimate he is worth a first rounder, simply because he is the type of player who finds space without having elite pace, and is capable of playing outside the midfield in areas which should see him play for another 7 years, but it would be line ball between him and another draftee. He might get some interest but we actually need to turn him into two players to make the exercise worthwhile.
I estimate this is how these two are viewed by the AFL. If you listen to the critique of everyone in this topic who state "trade him" they state they are fairly useless, and then believe they are worth first round draft picks (multiple in Gibbs case). Sounds slightly like wishful thinking to me.
Now moving on from that thinking, have a think about what we can do with their compensation. Draft maybe another top liner, or maybe another also ran in the teens of the draft (I don't see top 10 draft picks coming to us in return for either of these two) and even if we on trade for a player like Kelly, we end up younger, but no better on game day because we have actually gone backwards cutting loose players that play more good games than bad ones, just not to people's lofty expectations.
Some of these people will also not hesitate to part ways with Levi, who is on track to kick his biggest tally in his career, and looks to really be going from strength to strength and only Harry Mckay in his second year of footy resembles a key forward from the rest on our list.
Basically, the point I am making, is we need to bring in better talent to replace the blokes on our list who are taking us no where, and let guys like Gibbs and Murphy start to become role players, in an effort to IMPROVE us and not just change it. Changing it will not necessarily yield better results, and for those who want to argue with my thought process, getting rid of these two means seeing the following players go around again next year (potentially):
12 players on our senior list for a total of 50 games, and you can count the amount of times any of them made it into our top players on one hand and none of them will even poll well in the B+F instead of trading out blokes who will make up part of our top 5 in the B+F at the end of the season.
Whilst I understand the thought process of you have to trade something out to get something in, we are better off keeping it simple, and working on trades that will actually see our list in better shape in 2018 rather than just another unknown variable.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: DJC on August 01, 2017, 11:49:57 am
Does SOS need an assistant?
If so, Thry is the man for the job :)
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: pew2 on August 01, 2017, 11:57:18 am
my view is a player we could use as bait during trade week is a 20 yr old def named plowman .I see him as that in between player not quick,not tall enoughh.is he strong enough? Name a game where he has really stood out? in my eyes he is to slow. just a thought.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on August 01, 2017, 12:11:33 pm
my view is a player we could use as bait during trade week is a 20 yr old def named plowman .I see him as that in between player not quick,not tall enoughh.is he strong enough? Name a game where he has really stood out? in my eyes he is to slow. just a thought.
I like Plowman, and I reckon he's had a better season than Marchbank. Personally, I would not trade him.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: LP on August 01, 2017, 12:12:13 pm
Basically, the point I am making, is we need to bring in better talent to replace the blokes on our list who are taking us no where, and let guys like Gibbs and Murphy start to become role players, in an effort to IMPROVE us and not just change it. Changing it will not necessarily yield better results, and for those who want to argue with my thought process, getting rid of these two means seeing the following players go around again next year (potentially):
12 players on our senior list for a total of 50 games, and you can count the amount of times any of them made it into our top players on one hand and none of them will even poll well in the B+F instead of trading out blokes who will make up part of our top 5 in the B+F at the end of the season.
Whilst I understand the thought process of you have to trade something out to get something in, we are better off keeping it simple, and working on trades that will actually see our list in better shape in 2018 rather than just another unknown variable.
I've been arguing this for months but the Murphy and Gibbs haters refuse to accept the truth about our list! I'm sure they'd rather keep the spuds and get rid of the leaders, before eventually finding somebody else to blame like SOS or Bolton!
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: Thryleon on August 01, 2017, 01:47:52 pm
Thanks for the pat on the back DJC, but if we want to see us going the right way about doing things, I definitely am not the man for the job. I would be far too emotional about the place, and wouldnt be able to be ruthless enough. I could very well be wrong and trading these guys being the right thing to do, but the odds have to be stacked much more in our favour than bringing in another first round draft pick to replace them.
Every year the crop at the draft get better according to rumour, but have a think about us trading out our second rounder in the coming draft, to pick up 3 draft picks in the 60's and 70's in last seasons draft.
That doesnt speak for us prioritising the upcoming draft pool, particularly when you consider that we speculated (and seem to have won fairly well on them) on some late draftees from last year.
either SOS will be getting us more picks, or we will not be that active on draft day, and have factored in this draft not being a good one.
Murphy is a worry for me, not from an ability perspective, but an ability to play footy the way he currently does for much longer.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: LP on August 01, 2017, 03:47:18 pm
Kelly could cost us Gibbs, Murphy or even both, yet there is no guarantee he will be any better or even their equal!
We have some half decent player development now, lets make use of it with some quality draftees!
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: kruddler on August 01, 2017, 06:43:26 pm
I've been arguing this for months but the Murphy and Gibbs haters refuse to accept the truth about our list! I'm sure they'd rather keep the spuds and get rid of the leaders, before eventually finding somebody else to blame like SOS or Bolton!
I'm certainly not a hater of either, but that being said, i'm all for trading them.
I understand you need to improve the list, rather than trade like for like and get nowhere. However, my reasoning for doing so is that in a few years, we might not have them around at all, nor will we have any talent to replace them.
Trading an a-grader who is approaching 30, for an a-grader who is in his early 20's entering his prime IS improving the list as it means we have an a-grader on our list for another say 7 years thanks to the trade.
Look at it this way. We traded Fev away late in his career. That got us Henderson. We traded Henderson away That got us a 1st round pick. That was part of the GWS trade but basically got us pick 8. Pick 8, was eventually pick 10 which got us Harry McKay
So traded away an old Fevola got us a 10year+ Harry McKay.
What might we get for Gibbs and/or Murphy? ;)
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: pinot on August 01, 2017, 06:46:57 pm
Trade them both and lets repair this horrid no depth midfield once and for all.
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: ElwoodBlues1 on August 01, 2017, 06:49:16 pm
I like Plowman, and I reckon he's had a better season than Marchbank. Personally, I would not trade him.
Paul...Dont think either will be traded and are a big part of the future....this is the problem you get due to poor list management. The 10-12 players we want to get rid off are next to worthless and people start looking at trading decent future core players like Plowman, Marchbank because the others are only delist material. Sometimes you have to resist the temptation to trade quality, its like the sharemarket, mug traders feel they have to trade stocks all the time to feel like they are doing something but usually trade the wrong ones and keep losing money.. Recruiting/List management is the same, clubs like Hawthorn use the Warren Buffett analogy when they trade.....they want a dollars value for 50 cents, they just concentrated on value trading, getting something better for less..ie offloading players like Croad and Hay for Round 1 picks...ie Croad and McPharlin got them Hodge and Mitchell.... Nathan Lonie and pick 54 for Port Adelaides 1st rounder Pick 14..yep read and weep that we could do a deal that got us Pick 14 for say Nick Graham and Pick 54.....thats the difference and why Hawthorn dominated an era.. and this is how we have to trade..
Title: Re: Bryce Gibbs & Marc Murphy
Post by: PaulP on August 01, 2017, 06:55:20 pm
Agree Elwood. I certainly wasn't advocating trading them, but I can see why pew2 would make the suggestion.