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Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #30 –
Great post Crash!

I wonder if our MC would be brave enough to pick the 22 best able to take on our opposition each week.  That would mean Pittonet one week, De Koning the next, Marchbank in for Samo one week and Newman in for Marchy the week after.

That would mean a best 15 or 16 that are walk up starts and nine or ten who are in contention each week.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #31 –
Just a reminder that hawthorn won a flag with a bunch of also ran key defenders.

Brian Lake was the only proper key position defender they had aside from chip Frawley.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #32 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Just a reminder that hawthorn won a flag with a bunch of also ran key defenders.

Brian Lake was the only proper key position defender they had aside from chip Frawley.

Lake did win the Norm Smith Medal and he did have a few spuds like Hodge, Gibson, Birchall, Stratton, Mitchell and Burgoyne helping out.  Don't forget that Gibson had a great record against Buddy Franklin.  Frawley was a bit player in their 2015 premiership.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #33 –
Great post Crash, superb in fact. One of the things for me is that I think Stocker may need to form part of the midfield group. The idea of playing him in defence "to learn" the game doesn't make a lot of sense to me (but what would I know). He is a hard nosed, uncompromising mid first and foremost and we moved heaven and earth to secure him. Play him in the guts, his attributes are exactly what we need there.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
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2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
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Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #34 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Lake did win the Norm Smith Medal and he did have a few spuds like Hodge, Gibson, Birchall, Stratton, Mitchell and Burgoyne helping out.  Don't forget that Gibson had a great record against Buddy Franklin.  Frawley was a bit player in their 2015 premiership.
yes but how many of them are key position players?
Gibson 189cm
Stratton 189cm
Birchall 193cm

The rest are a similar sized bunch of midgets.  We don't need to find the next big thing to help out our defense.  We wouldn't want to go in without Liam and Jacob very frequently but hawthorn managed to win 3 flags in a row because they had consistency in their lineup, consistency in how players played roles, and a bit of luck (which all successful teams need) that breakdowns were few and far between.  There were quite a few unsung heros in their teams.  We have a few players that fit that bill if they could stop breaking down.

The point in making is that without Brian Lake hawthorn were a team of short defenders and we are not.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson
 

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #35 –
Good work Crash.

I've run into similar problems with picking a best 22, and as you eluded to, it all starts with the ruck.

TDK or Pittonet.....or both?
If both, do we have room for Casboult?
If we play Casboult, then surely we can't play Charlie, Harry and Mitch as well.
We might even struggle to play Charlie and Harry with Casboult.....and both rucks.

If we can't fit in either Casboult or McGovern and we get an injury down back, what cover do we have (mid-game?).

No matter which way you slice it, there will be AFL level 'taller players' who cannot fit into our best 22 each week.

I reckon we have a similar problem with our smaller defenders.
Pick 6 players to go with Jones/Weitering to play as defenders...
Docherty, Newman, Plowman, Marchbank, Saad, SPS, Willo, Stocker....

You can see that to fit them in you are already using wing/bench spots (to get to 6) and you still can't fit that list entire list of defenders in.

These teams are all based on previous years efforts too.
But what about a kid coming in and earning/demanding a spot?
What about if any/all of Dow, LoB, Kemp, Fogarty breaking the door down?? Who makes way then?


Yes, injuries will always 'help' us pick a best 22.....but i reckon we have a best 30....with a few more players who could easily play AFL outside of that.

Teague likes to have a stable team....which has its advantages.
However, personally i think you should always pick your team that matches up on the opposition best....without handicapping yourself in the process. With that in mind, we have a lot of flexibility with our team selections and overall team 'style'.
We can play supertall. (pick TDK, Pittonet, Casboult, Harry, Charlie, Jones, Weitering....Mcgovern)
We can play bigger bodied. (pick Cripps, Setterfield, Ed, Williams, Kennedy, Silvagni...)
We can play smaller and quicker (Pick Dow, LoB, Owies, Honey....

We can change our team, and our game plan, on a week to week basis to suit our opponents.

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #36 –
I am keen to see how TDK develops this year. Once he has reached the minimum maturity level needed I think he will greatly reduce our present need to keep Casboult on the list. Levi is mainly there as  insurance for now imo.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #37 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
yes but how many of them are key position players?
Gibson 189cm
Stratton 189cm
Birchall 193cm

The rest are a similar sized bunch of midgets.  We don't need to find the next big thing to help out our defense.  We wouldn't want to go in without Liam and Jacob very frequently but hawthorn managed to win 3 flags in a row because they had consistency in their lineup, consistency in how players played roles, and a bit of luck (which all successful teams need) that breakdowns were few and far between.  There were quite a few unsung heros in their teams.  We have a few players that fit that bill if they could stop breaking down.

The point in making is that without Brian Lake hawthorn were a team of short defenders and we are not.



Some blokes play taller.  Gibson certainly did and in years gone by we had Doull (185cm) and Dean (186cm) as key defenders.  And then there's Marchbank at 193cm who struggles to compete against the bigger forwards.  We played McGovern  (191cm) in defence against Brisbane last season and their tall forwards had a picnic against him.

Most teams these days have at least two very large key forwards, and probably a second ruck, in their forward line.  Jones and Weitering can match it with any of them, Plowman (191cm) is competitive against even the tallest, but then our next option is Casboult.

We do have plenty of depth with our medium and small defenders but we will struggle if we lose a key defender or ruckman.  As much as I think that he could be a waste of space, Oscar McDonald (196cm) would have to be leading the race for the last spot on our list.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #38 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Some blokes play taller.  Gibson certainly did and in years gone by we had Doull (185cm) and Dean (186cm) as key defenders.  And then there's Marchbank at 193cm who struggles to compete against the bigger forwards.  We played McGovern  (191cm) in defence against Brisbane last season and their tall forwards had a picnic against him.

Most teams these days have at least two very large key forwards, and probably a second ruck, in their forward line.  Jones and Weitering can match it with any of them, Plowman (191cm) is competitive against even the tallest, but then our next option is Casboult.

We do have plenty of depth with our medium and small defenders but we will struggle if we lose a key defender or ruckman.  As much as I think that he could be a waste of space, Oscar McDonald (196cm) would have to be leading the race for the last spot on our list.

My other point is, that its all match up dependent.

Marchbank can do most but the tallest.  Ditto Mcgovern and like you said Plowman.

Thing is, if we can restrict the number of looks opposition forwards get it wont matter anyway.

Hawthorn had a team defense and thats why they got away with smaller talls in defense.  Gibson was an interceptor, not a man marker.  If Marchbank can play that role for us, it will be fine.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #39 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
My other point is, that its all match up dependent.

Marchbank can do most but the tallest.  Ditto Mcgovern and like you said Plowman.

Thing is, if we can restrict the number of looks opposition forwards get it wont matter anyway.

Hawthorn had a team defense and thats why they got away with smaller talls in defense.  Gibson was an interceptor, not a man marker.  If Marchbank can play that role for us, it will be fine.


I would be very happy if we tweaked our defence each week so that we match up well against every opposition forward line.  My main concern is that our team defence often meant that Weitering or Jones found themselves minding a small forward (which is fine) and Samo, Simmo or Willo were trying to stop a gorilla (which is far from fine).  Hopefully, the backline coach will have sorted that out and our defenders can switch back to their preferred opponent ASAP.

I'm not convinced that McGovern can take a key forward.  He was exposed in that role against Brisbane and I think his forte in defence is intercept marking.  Of course, his performance may just have been a continuation of his poor form and he could do well forward or back this season.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #40 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
We can change our team, and our game plan, on a week to week basis to suit our opponents.

I look forward to the day when we maintain our successful game plan and solid crew of 24 or so players and OTHER teams are forced to adjust against us!  THAT is progress!!

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #41 –
Quote from: townsendcalling – on
I look forward to the day when we maintain our successful game plan and solid crew of 24 or so players and OTHER teams are forced to adjust against us!  THAT is progress!!

As I mentioned last year, I don't buy into the 'best 22'. To me it is a best 25-31... with a backbone starting 16 - the core. Many have said that to be top 4 and a contender it is the strength of your 'last picked 6' who have a big say in ultimate success.

Assuming all are fit and in form, my 16 'core' players would be:

Cripps
McKay
Jones
Docherty
Walsh
Martin
Weitering
C Curnow
E Curnow
Setterfield
Williams
Saad
DeKoning
Casboult
Fisher
SPS

The next 6 would come from (and rounding out our best 25 - 22/3 emergencies)
Silvagni
Murphy
McGovern
Betts
Plowman
Marchbank
Williamson
Gibbons
Newman

Then those rounding out to 28:
Kennedy
Pittonet
Newnes


Last chance brigade (any of whom could move up to being in the top 25 by year's end):
Dow
O'Brien
Cunningham

That's not a bad first 31.


And the unknowns (with fingers crossed for strong advancement):
Kemp
Stocker
Philp
Ramsay
Honey
Owies
Cottrell
Carroll
Durdin
Fogarty
Parks

Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #42 –
I like that approach Baggers ... but Murphy would be in my first 16 and Cuningham would be 18th picked (after Plowman).

Fisher would drop out of the first 16 and Newnes would have to be in the next six.

Hopefully, several of the unknowns will have displaced more established players before the bye.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #43 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
yes but how many of them are key position players?
Gibson 189cm
Stratton 189cm
Birchall 193cm

The rest are a similar sized bunch of midgets.  We don't need to find the next big thing to help out our defense.  We wouldn't want to go in without Liam and Jacob very frequently but hawthorn managed to win 3 flags in a row because they had consistency in their lineup, consistency in how players played roles, and a bit of luck (which all successful teams need) that breakdowns were few and far between.  There were quite a few unsung heros in their teams.  We have a few players that fit that bill if they could stop breaking down.

The point in making is that without Brian Lake hawthorn were a team of short defenders and we are not.



Defenders' lives are so much easier when they are playing behind a strong and ruthless midfield and forward line who don't let the ball travel down the ground with any speed.

The Hawthorn midfield and half forward line of that era were a dominant bunch who made sure that the ball was more likely to go forward at each stoppage.  Once it was in their forward half, Hodge martialled a wall to keep it that way.  And if they didn't have the ball, they squeezed super hard until a mistake was forced.

Accordingly, Gibson, Stratton, Birchall et al didn't have to contend with the ball sky-rocketing into their zones with a bunch of one-on-ones.  It was far more controlled than that, and easier to group-defend (Gibson's favourite job was third man up...).

Defence is not just about defenders -  it's about forwards and midfielders putting pressure on their respective opponents and covering each other's butts.  When that doesn't happen, the defenders are faced with an avalanche that is almost impossible to stop. 
.
This is now the longest premiership drought in the history of the Carlton Football Club - more evidence of climate change?

Re: Best 22 in 21

Reply #44 –
Birchall doesnt/didnt defend he is purely a rebounder IMO.....Gibson played taller against certain opponents where he could use his pace and fitness and thats why he was handy vs Buddy but you wouldnt have him on players like Lynch, Hawkins, Dixon and expect him to cope. I think one of our main problems is small defenders and finding ones who can defend and not just rebound.
Saad doesnt like having to man up, Docherty and Simpson both like to work of their man and thats why small forwards have worried us over the years.
I'm interested in our round 1 team and wanting to know can we get away with a player like Marchbank down back vs one of the Tigers smalls given they only play two KP forwards with four smalls and Martin every now and then.
You really have to adjust your backline each week to get the match ups right and you probably need a back 8-10 who you can pick from to find the right combo's.