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Topic: Football Department Review (Read 210995 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Review

Reply #450 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I'd bet London to a brick that most, if not all of SPS, Dow, O'Brien etc. would be flying at the better clubs, instead of languishing in CFC limbo. For every Weitering, Walsh, McKay etc. there are way too many fails to be ignored IMO.

Not only that Paul, imagine how good Cripps, Weitering, Walsh and McKay could be  :-\
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Review

Reply #451 –
Quote from: laj – on
Same reason as premiership coaches like Malthouse failed. Player culture, lack of drive and motivation. All player issues. Keep changing coaches, nothing changes in any of those aspects. Game plans never look like they work when players decide they won't work hard. Ridiculously, Teague has comfortably been our 2nd best coach, from a win/loss basis, this century and certainly one of the most scoreboard competitive (as distinct from actually competitive sometimes). Won't only need to change of player attitude and workrate to make finals.

Yes, agree with the latter part. From what I heard though Teague has had enough and wanted to quit a few weeks ago, Between family tragedy and trying to his his team to do as their told he probably had enough.

I really don't buy the idea that it's poor player culture that causes the downfall of our coaches ... and coaches are responsible for managing the playing group and that includes driving a competitive, winning culture.

The problem is with the board and administration that (a) sack coaches that show potential to succeed, (b) appoint the wrong coaches (c) don't give coaches the support and assistance they need (d) value membership numbers more than sustained success, and (e) can't stick with a plan for sustained success.

It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Review

Reply #452 –
Quote from: DJC – on
If Teague can coach at AFL level, why haven't we seen evidence of it.
Compare the pair....
Bolton vs Teague.

I've shown his last 40 games vs teagues first 40 games and the difference is night and day.

If Bolton was really that bad, then surely Teague get a pass just on what he's been able to do with the same list.

Re: Review

Reply #453 –
Teague has a better list than Bolton ever had - more star power, more depth, more experience (players have more games under their belts), more stability. The other side of the coin is that expectations and demands for success are greater for Teague.

Re: Review

Reply #454 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Teague has a better list than Bolton ever had - more star power, more depth, more experience (players have more games under their belts), more stability. The other side of the coin is that expectations and demands for success are greater for Teague.

How much of that did he have in his first 11 games as coach?

I rest my case.
 

Re: Review

Reply #455 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Compare the pair....
Bolton vs Teague.

I've shown his last 40 games vs teagues first 40 games and the difference is night and day.

If Bolton was really that bad, then surely Teague get a pass just on what he's been able to do with the same list.


Teagues first 41 games are 17W 24L. Guess what Bollts first 41 games yielded? You guessed it 17W 24L.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Review

Reply #456 –
So tell me why there was an immediate turnaround in W / L under Teague?  Same list after all.

Re: Review

Reply #458 –
List quality isn't just about names on a list, independent of time and space. It's not just about Saad, Williams etc. It's also about maturation and experience. Walsh has played abut 40 of his 50 games under Teague. Weitering and McKay became A graders this season. DeKoning is better now.

If folks don't think our list is better now, then we've just wasted 2 years and millions if dollars.

Re: Review

Reply #459 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Teagues first 41 games are 17W 24L. Guess what Bollts first 41 games yielded? You guessed it 17W 24L.
Different lists.

Teague took over Boltons list.
Teague got more wins in his first 11 games than Bolton did in his last 50+.

Re: Review

Reply #460 –
I've finished my review. I have no recommendations yet.

Bolton came into the job with a brief to develop a young rebuilding list.
He came with the idea that he’d work first on the defensive side of things and get that settled, then build on that foundation.

Silvagni came into his job wanting to build a well- rounded list, not one to finish eighth but one that would enjoy a ‘sustained period of success’.
His first draft secured a Key forward, key back, a tall utility, a mid-fielder….and Jack (a good start)

David Teague came on board as an assistant coach (forwards) after a successful stint working with the forwards at Adelaide

Bolton played the younger players in many positions usually taken by the more experienced, especially midfield, while the older player adopted secondary roles. The aim was to develop these youngsters by giving them early responsibility. How this was received by some of the older players is uncertain but they seemed to perk up when returned to their previous responsibilities.

2019 and suddenly wins took precedent over development. Bolton out the door.

With development pushed to the side Teague now looks for wins or at best good results. Senior players replace the younger group in important roles (have a look at Dow’s 2019 stats before and after Teague took over).

Teague enters the job talking a revolutionary idea that the practices of the recent past (by most AFL sides), a concentration on defence first, could be overwhelmed by an all-out attack.
He sees an opportunity to change the way the game is played and at the same time gain a ‘competitive advantage’.

Prior to taking on the senior role and in the months after he went after and advocated for a couple of players from his old club who would help his cause in McGovern and Betts
He had reason to be optimistic coming into 2021. He could perhaps see a time later in the year where he had a forward line that looked a bit like this…
F: Betts, McKay, McGovern (A fit one)
HF: Martin, Curnow, Silvagni.
That would have been a forward line hard to cover had they all been fit and firing at their best. (wishful thinking maybe)

The key was getting the ball to them. A fully fit Cripps, Walsh and Williams (who could also play an attacking half-back role), attacking half backs in Saad and Docherty…and suddenly the all-out attack didn’t seem too far-fetched. If they scored a 100 we’d score 110-120.

The first problem of course was we were never going to have that full list, fully fit.
Instead, we had
- players on long term injury,
- players playing injured or
- form slumps with players inconsistent or well below their best.
And the reality was that the attacking mid-field depth was dependent on players stepping up, which just hasn't happened.
 
All of this has contributed to an extra work- load on a smaller group who were just getting worn down over time. While there were parts of our game that were very good, it just wasn’t sustainable. As a result we probably have a bit of a kick-back from some players. They question the ability to play a game style we don’t have the players to implement. There are queries as to why some players are selected over others. Attempts to correct things are difficult having had a style of play drilled into them. Compromises need to be made but there are no easy games in 2021 and making adjustments mid-season is complicated.

It's not so much a lack of faith in the coach. It's more a result of the circumstances we find ourselves in. The incoming President picks up on this and brings forward a review hoping to have things evaluated and settled before preparations for 2022 can begin.

The second problem is just a guess that flows from the above, but it may go some way to providing an explanation for the way Silvagni left.
Silvagni’s aim would have been for a team that was evenly balanced. All of a sudden his plans are disrupted by a change in focus to this attacking style. The move to bring Betts into the side being an example. Was there this argument over attack v balance and did Liddle and Lloyd side with Teague’s approach. Silvagni was planning to stay a little longer but the rug was pulled out from underneath him. The impression was he didn’t fight too hard to resist.

The third and major issue that probably won’t get a mention in any review is that from the point when this rebuild was planned and announced none of the architects or builders managed to see it through.
The folks in charge at different points will have put their own marks and twists on what is occurring and  as a result it may have lost its way.

Re: Review

Reply #461 –
I'm pretty sure I read comments from Silvagni that he was on board with getting Betts to the club. I think what gave him the sh1ts is that (according to him) Liddle offered Betts more money than what has originally agreed to.

Re: Review

Reply #462 –
Teague's early success is not hard to figure out. We should all be pretty worried about what's happened since then. His record in 2019 won't save his ar$e. As far as the club is concerned, it's ancient history.

Re: Review

Reply #463 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Teague's early success is not hard to figure out. We should all be pretty worried about what's happened since then. His record in 2019 won't save his ar$e. As far as the club is concerned, it's ancient history.
His record in 2021 is still better than what Bolton was putting out.

FWIW, Carlton have the 2nd easiest draw from here.
AND
Carlton have had the 4th most injuries to date......if we add in the BS suspensions, we'd probably jump up a notch or 2 for games missed by injuries AND suspension.

Re: Review

Reply #464 –
If you think "better than Bolton" is a standard that Carlton will accept, and a standard that will save his job.................

They gave him a better, more expensive list and free rein in the expectation of playing finals.

Teague won't last 30 seconds if he goes into the review and says "but my record is better than Bolts." He shouldn't use that as a pass mark or a yard stick, and neither should we.