AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

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Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #90 – April 13, 2022, 10:39:11 am

Just the first loss so not going get too upset yet. not one goes through undefeated, although the manner of the loss was very Carlton-like. Lose this week though and it will be different. It'd feel like the old Carlton.

I'm not so interested in the loss than in the rebound.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #91 – April 13, 2022, 11:10:06 am

Quote from: DJC on April 13, 2022, 10:05:21 am

Yes I agree that effective disposal stats are dodgy and disposal stats themselves aren’t particularly meaningful. However, they are the only comparative measure we have, apart from one’s memory and the replay.

My memory tells me that Boyd’s disposal was generally good. It stuck in my memory because it was such a contrast to his previous games.

That said, I’m not really sure what he brings to the team. Vossy praised him for getting to contests but I’d rather have someone who wins contests.

I dont see Voss praising him getting to contests as a negative when he would prefer we win them. Every player needs to be judged relative to their capability.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #92 – April 13, 2022, 11:32:07 am

Quote from: Thryleon on April 13, 2022, 11:10:06 am

I dont see Voss praising him getting to contests as a negative when he would prefer we win them. Every player needs to be judged relative to their capability.

Every player needs to be judged relative to what they contribute to the team structure, balance and performance. They will also be judged relative to the capabilities of others competing for their positions. Getting to contests is something we lacked in past seasons and accurate kicking out of defence remains an issue. Boyd's performances so far suggest that he could tick a couple of boxes, but I suspect he needs to tick several more.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #93 – April 13, 2022, 11:57:45 am

Agree DJC....I'm still not sure on what Boyd's role is if he comes into the team? We have a few running/offensive half back types like Saad, Williams, Docherty....and to a lesser extent Newman. Can Boyd play that lock down role on a small forward? If not, then it's hard to see him forcing his way into the side ahead of someone like Stocker.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #94 – April 13, 2022, 12:56:42 pm

You cant judge a fish by its ability to ride a bycicle, just because you have a cyclist who is currently unable to fulfil that duty though DJC.

Boyd got a gig, and subsequent praise for being a fish attempting to ride a bycicle is my point. Some of the others wont pull the finger out to even give it a crack.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #95 – April 13, 2022, 01:30:03 pm

Quote from: Thryleon on April 13, 2022, 12:56:42 pm

You cant judge a fish by its ability to ride a bycicle, just because you have a cyclist who is currently unable to fulfil that duty though DJC.

Boyd got a gig, and subsequent praise for being a fish attempting to ride a bycicle is my point. Some of the others wont pull the finger out to even give it a crack.

I like your turn of phrase Thry

Boyd got several gigs (if you include pre-season) and has been widely criticised here for his disposal, supposedly one of his strengths. I thought his disposal was quite good on Sunday and he made some difficult kicks look relatively easy. Other aspects of his game and how he fits into our defensive structure are different questions entirely.

I'd prefer to see a bigger, stronger defender who doesn't get out-muscled or left behind in a foot race.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #96 – April 13, 2022, 02:20:16 pm

I've been quite vocal on Boyd (i'm quite vocal on a lot of things

), but i generally tend to defend the players more than most on here do.

Even to the point where he was drafted. I saw his highlights and questioned his need, but he did have elite kicking (well highlights don't show the misses do they) so i was prepared to give him a go.

However, starting from the pre-season games where he stunk it up and look well out of his depth, to the couple games he's played for us now, better, still sub-standard IMO, i am still left wondering if we have anyone on our list currently who is less inspiring and less deserving than Boyd.
IMO he has every other footballer on our list above him in the pecking order and nothing i've seen from him suggests otherwise.

I've said it, and a few others have said it too, but WHAT does he bring to the team? Shifter Sheahan says in order to be drafted you must be elite in something, preferably more than 1 thing. WHAT is his 1 thing? Should be kicking, but that is very much suspect under pressure, so is it really a strength?

OK, so he can get to contests....its a start. He loses his feet too easily, gets outbodied too easily and doesn't really win them. So does it really matter if he can get to contests if the end result is basically the same as if he never got there?

As a mature age recruit, he should be more advanced than what he is. He might be a ripping bloke, but i don't want him playing 1's.
Send him back to the VFL and let him knock down the door there before bringing him back.

By comparison, someone like Williamson (who i'm not a huge fan of) has the ability to get to contests too. Has a body big enough, and a mindset wild enough, to impact those contests. His ability to run and carry is both a positive (he adds run from defense) and a negative (he runs into trouble). So willo offers more in a similar role, despite having plenty of downsides.

You could similar about Cottrel. Hard, a running beast.

I'm not sure what Boyd offers over these other blokes, but we are clearly not seeing it yet.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #97 – April 13, 2022, 02:55:09 pm

I'm not interested in our many cheap kicks our defenders get its about how they defend and stop their opponents that matters.
Seems to me we have got carried away with rebounders picking up bags of possessions and judge our defenders on how many cheap kicks they get. Newman, Docherty and Williams are players who get plenty of ball each week but I want scrutiny on what their opponents are doing...We know Saad is capable of doing both roles and Weitering always puts defense first but the others need the microscope on their defensive work IMHO.
Yep Boyd picked up a few kicks but what did his opponent do?...maybe nothing so Boyd has every right to stay in the team as he would have done his primary role, maybe his man was involved in multiple goal assists or kicked a few himself so if thats the case Boyd has to go. This is why I like Stocker because like Saad you get a player who can both defend and attack and will stick close to his man. Richmond won three flags on the back of having a well balanced defense with Grimes, Broad, Astbury and Vlastuin providing a strong first line of defense but had Houli, Baker/ Short providing some run and flair off half back.
I'd like to see us with a similar setup and lose one rebounder in favour of a stronger defensive player....

Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #98 – April 13, 2022, 03:00:23 pm

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on April 13, 2022, 02:55:09 pm

I'd like to see us with a similar setup and lose one rebounder in favour of a stronger defensive player....

I'd like to see us pick a side to beat the opposition, not just our best 6 players and then try and find a role that they don't stuff up.

If the opposition has 3 talls, play 3 tall defenders.
If they have small forwards that turn the game, play someone who can lock down on them.
Need to lock down the wingers, play more attacking half backs to pick up the slack.
etc.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #99 – April 13, 2022, 03:13:09 pm

Quote from: LordLucifer on April 12, 2022, 11:46:53 am

Could write three pages on how bad that was, the wheels completely fell off and to add insult to injury, not one of our players wanted to put them back on.

Way to complacent, a refusal to tackle & chase, too much finger pointing to a team-mate to instruct them to mind an opponent ........ I could go on !!

This game showed up a number of players as frauds and not being prepared to fight when the game was on the line. Don't get me wrong, the Suns played well and thoroughly deserved to win but we were barely competitive after quarter time, no-one wanted to take ownership and fight it out, pathetic really.

Setterfield ......... FFS, banish this bloke to the magoos forever, looks like Tarzan but plays like a pre-school ballerina.

Fisher ..... running around on the spot spectating, may as well taken the ground with a deckchair and some binoculars.

Fogerty ..... supposedly Cats fans were upset to lose him, I bet they don't want him back now, here's a subtle hint for you Lachie - lay multiple tackles and apply some forward 50 pressure, otherwise, go back to the quilting classes.

Walsh .... had 28 disposals ........ bugger me, I struggled to see any of them, he is not even half the player we know he should be.

McKay .... 4 marks & 7 kicks for the tallest player on the ground who then copped a $1K fine for staging ..... get out the viagra eye-drops and stand in front of a mirror, time for you take a long hard look at yourself.

Plowman ........ WTF does the match committee, coaching staff & a selective section of the supporter base see in this clown ?? He is the biggest liability on the list, banish him to the Ukraine where he spend his hours running around dodging Russians instead of opposition players.

De Koning ....... qualified as a Life Member of Mensa with his attempt to touch that set shot at goal by standing 5-metres inside the field of play instead of starting off behind the goal umpire.

Martin ......... we don't want to see your highlights reel, we just want to see the whole meat & potatoes stuff, I've said it before and I'm confirming it again here, this guy is a bone-fide overpaid dud, come at me !!!

Kennedy ........ you were given a golden opportunity to stamp your individual presence on a game with Cripps going off injured, I don't care how good you have been in previous weeks, this was your time to show genuine leadership and lead the midfield, you failed the exam miserably.

Cerra ........... paid the big bucks but with no discernable impact on the match, I'll cut you some slack this one and only time, never ever put up another crap-show like that again.

Newman ...... who the feck do you think you are, Hulk Hogan or King Kong Bundy ?? Fancy wrestling with that midget Ainswerth and then giving away a 50-m penalty that resulted in a certain goal - your papers are stamped now son !!!

One of the few players that genuinely earnt his pay packet was Lochie O'Brien and I'm certainly no fan of his. He was not afraid to tackle, chase, bump or at one stage, go up in the ruck, he was bleeding for the jumper even though he has some serious limitations, some of his team-mates should have been embarrassed to look him in the eye.

And Charlie Curnow ...... take your screwing time when having a set-shot for goal, OOTF does us no favours at all.

Win 3 lose 1. Some of our contributors forget to make comments after the 3 wins, but shoot with both barrels when we have an inevitable loss. Believe it or not, we WILL lose at least 8 matches this year, some will hurt more than others but that is where we are at this stage of our development. Enjoy the ride, celebrate the wins, trust the coaches, support the players, reflect on the defeats....and aim for a top 8 finish. OR we can bag the cr@p out of the place every time we hit a hurdle. I'll back the former.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #100 – April 13, 2022, 05:09:10 pm

Quote from: townsendcalling on April 13, 2022, 03:13:09 pm

Enjoy the ride, celebrate the wins, trust the coaches, support the players, reflect on the defeats....and aim for a top 8 finish. OR we can bag the cr@p out of the place every time we hit a hurdle. I'll back the former.

Most will be a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B!

Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #101 – April 13, 2022, 05:14:57 pm

Quote from: townsendcalling on April 13, 2022, 03:13:09 pm

Win 3 lose 1. Some of our contributors forget to make comments after the 3 wins, but shoot with both barrels when we have an inevitable loss. Believe it or not, we WILL lose at least 8 matches this year, some will hurt more than others but that is where we are at this stage of our development. Enjoy the ride, celebrate the wins, trust the coaches, support the players, reflect on the defeats....and aim for a top 8 finish. OR we can bag the cr@p out of the place every time we hit a hurdle. I'll back the former.

100% TC, I know I got hot under the collar watching on Sunday and turned it off early in the third, more about the way we played rather than the result. If you had of said to me we would be 3-1 at the start of the season, I would have taken it every day of the week and twice on Sundays. So its time for this little black duck to calm the farm and enjoy the ride (which will be bumpy at times). I do however want to see a good response this week though.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #102 – April 13, 2022, 05:58:15 pm

Quote from: Gointocarlton on April 13, 2022, 05:14:57 pm

100% TC, I know I got hot under the collar watching on Sunday and turned it off early in the third, more about the way we played rather than the result. If you had of said to me we would be 3-1 at the start of the season, I would have taken it every day of the week and twice on Sundays. So its time for this little black duck to calm the farm and enjoy the ride (which will be bumpy at times). I do however want to see a good response this week though.

Think it was more who we lost against was what riled a lot of supporters...GC are crape, if that had been Melbourne most would have just said yep we have improved but are still short of the top teams and moved on but when you lose to a team devoid of real star power, coached by a battler like Stuey Dew clinging to his job and have a few of your players on big money not turning up or putting in short steps it takes you back to the dim past. Probably the signs were there after the Hawthorn game that we were nose diving and just fell over the line vs a rookie coach and a team of kids and old fellas. As Stkilda showed the Hawks are a very average team and its really been two weeks in a row we have struggled after a honeymoon start.
We should be clear cut favorites vs a very weak Port team who travel poorly but none of us know what Carlton will turn up....Lord Lucifer has every right IMO to question what was a pathetic display vs GC imho.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #103 – April 13, 2022, 06:03:34 pm

Quote from: townsendcalling on April 13, 2022, 03:13:09 pm

Win 3 lose 1. Some of our contributors forget to make comments after the 3 wins, but shoot with both barrels when we have an inevitable loss. Believe it or not, we WILL lose at least 8 matches this year, some will hurt more than others but that is where we are at this stage of our development. Enjoy the ride, celebrate the wins, trust the coaches, support the players, reflect on the defeats....and aim for a top 8 finish. OR we can bag the cr@p out of the place every time we hit a hurdle. I'll back the former.

I put losses into three different categories.

The first category covers losses such as a very tight game where the the bounce of the ball, a lucky kick by the opposition, or similarly a bad umpiring decision etc, decides the result.

The second category covers losses where, despite our best efforts, we are beaten by a better side on the day.

I have no trouble accepting losses in these categories when they occur and accept them as being where we are at that stage.

It's the third category of losses that I find unacceptable - the games where we should be competitive but lose in humiliating circumstances because the players, for some undisclosed reason, are not switched on and fall in a heap: these are the types of losses we have had to put up with so many times this century.

When our losses begin to fall into the first 2 categories I believe contributors will be more acceptable of those losses and will not fire from the hip so often, figuratively speaking.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2022 Post Game Permutations Carlton vs Gold Coast

Reply #104 – April 13, 2022, 06:15:06 pm

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on April 13, 2022, 05:58:15 pm

Think it was more who we lost against was what riled a lot of supporters...GC are crape, if that had been Melbourne most would have just said yep we have improved but are still short of the top teams and moved on but when you lose to a team devoid of real star power, coached by a battler like Stuey Dew clinging to his job and have a few of your players on big money not turning up or putting in short steps it takes you back to the dim past. Probably the signs were there after the Hawthorn game that we were nose diving and just fell over the line vs a rookie coach and a team of kids and old fellas. As Stkilda showed the Hawks are a very average team and its really been two weeks in a row we have struggled after a honeymoon start.
We should be clear cut favorites vs a very weak Port team who travel poorly but none of us know what Carlton will turn up....Lord Lucifer has every right IMO to question what was a pathetic display vs GC imho.

What I got out of TC's post was that loses are going happen and some will hurt more than others. Sunday was one of the those for the reasons you mention above.