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Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #45 –
Quote from: Lods – on
You can leave out the 'white' and 'male'.
That's a generalisation that's unrepresentative of all white, males
Just leave it at prick.
............................

I'm also white male and privileged, and my views on pretty much everything are the opposite of his. But that's not quite the point. There's no suggestion on my part that whites are inherently more racist, misogynistic etc. than anyone else. This is an issue of structured power imbalance. If the roles were reversed, there's every chance that blacks and other POC would behave as badly as the whites. Power and privilege cause blindness and entitlement over a period of time. But as far as the status quo in the developed world is concerned, facts are facts. The great majority of people who publicly express views like Clarkson, whether overtly or subtly, do happen to be people like him.

Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #46 –
I don't know
I reckon in general (and I'm generalising myself a bit here) that the major interest in this situation is not from men at all.
In fact I suspect there's a bit of 'couldn't care less' about them amongst most males.

The most interest, and much of the criticism of Harry and Meghan I've seen comes from women.
Are others seeing that?

Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #47 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I'm also white male and privileged, and my views on pretty much everything are the opposite of his. But that's not quite the point. There's no suggestion on my part that whites are inherently more racist, misogynistic etc. than anyone else. This is an issue of structured power imbalance. If the roles were reversed, there's every chance that blacks and other POC would behave as badly as the whites. Power and privilege cause blindness and entitlement over a period of time. But as far as the status quo in the developed world is concerned, facts are facts. The great majority of people who publicly express views like Clarkson, whether overtly or subtly, do happen to be people like him.


I think we have to start being a bit careful with using labels like 'old', '
'white', 'male'.

These groups have a great variation in their thinking and views of life.

Far from being a privileged group under such labelling, when used in a derogatory manner, we're actually assuming an "intellectual inferiority" in terms of their thinking.
 

Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #48 –
Quote from: Lods – on
I think we have to start being a bit careful with using labels like 'old', '
'white', 'male'.

These groups have a great variation in their thinking and views of life.

Far from being a privileged group under such labelling, when used in a derogatory manner, we're actually assuming an "intellectual inferiority" in terms of their thinking.
 
I think of the 3, its the OLD part that is the main issue.
Jokes like that (half truths or not) are getting shot down and called out more and more these days.
He's made a career out of being controversal. He isn't saying anything different (in tone at least) than he has said he's whole career. While he hasn't changed, the audience has. He needs to be mindful of that.
You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #49 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Right. She's trying to make a buck by following the fairly standard celebrity route, so when deadsh1ts like Clarkson post violent misogynistic filth, then that's OK, because hey, that's just the price of doing business ? Maybe the b1tch just had it coming ? Surely you can see the narrative you're setting up here ? You do realise the media portrays Lady Di as holier than thou, despite the fact that she cheated on her husband. The narratives between the two women are totally different, and they're intended to be different, and they're structured to be different. I'm not for or against Di or Markle or anyone else.

And as for the comparison to Essendon, I mean what ?
Clarkson is only made relevant by your posts, his abhorrent rhetoric should not be used to excuse Markle's actions, actions that are clearly contrary to her words.

They aren't so much victim as they are instigator.

Much of the royalty is living proof of the dangers of inbreeding!

I can't be sure whether Diana's mental state and actions were cause or effect, the waters are too muddy.

Finally, as for the society socials queens standing up to defend Markle with assertions that Clarkson is proof of her media claims, well ..... It's a bit like cyanide claiming arsenic is evil!
 
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #50 –
Quote from: LP – on
Clarkson is only made relevant by your posts, his abhorrent rhetoric should not be used to excuse Markle's actions, actions that are clearly contrary to her words.

They aren't so much victim as they are instigator...................................................................

Right, so because in your eyes she's hypocritical, therefore she deserves :
a. a punishment,
b. the punishment specified by Clarkson.

In other words, as I said earlier, "b1tch had it coming."

Great work LP.

Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #51 –
Charlie and Will really brought out the big guns with Clarkson.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #52 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Right, so because in your eyes she's hypocritical, therefore she deserves :
a. a punishment,
b. the punishment specified by Clarkson.

In other words, as I said earlier, "b1tch had it coming."

Great work LP.
No they are your words @PaulP I've never made such an assertion.

But I'm not going to swallow the spin that Markle is some sort of universal victim.

There is no morality in actions if they are motivated by cash, they don't deliver a key to heaven! ;)

Clarkson / Markle, they are opposite sides of the same coin, and they are working the same crowd. One works the pity angle, the other casts the first stone, but which is which?

We could rewrite this post, as a template as follows;

No they are your words, I've never made such an assertion.

But I'm not going to swallow the spin that ________ is some sort of universal victim.

There is no morality in actions if they are motivated by cash, they don't deliver a key to heaven! ;)

________ / ________, they are opposite sides of the same coin, and they are working the same crowd. One works the pity angle, the other casts the first stone, but which is which?

Insert whatever names you like in just about any order;

Clarkson / Markle
Depp / Heard
Packer / Carey
Pitt / Jolie
Pitt / Aniston

Pretty much anywhere this sort of public media war is declared, altruism is the victim and profit rules.

Most of the public anger and disgust, might well be emotions erupting at the thought of being gamed!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"
 

Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #53 –
What an appalling ideology. What we have according to this view is a flat undifferentiated field created by and governed by the market forces of capitalism. There are no longer victims and perpetrators, no longer the powerful exploiting the weaker, no longer any need for ethics. Merely a level playing field of identical units,  who are either cynical opportunists or shameless hucksters  where victim hood is simply another marketing opportunity.  One step away from believing that Grace Tame and Brittany Higgins should be grateful to their abusers for making them famous. 

Markle has done nothing,  I mean literally nothing,  to deserve those comments, and no amount of spin from you is going to change that.  The comments are awful,  and they need be condemned as such, without excuses and without  qualification.

Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #54 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Markle has done nothing,  I mean literally nothing,  to deserve those comments, and no amount of spin from you is going to change that.  The comments are awful,  and they need be condemned as such, without excuses and without  qualification.
She has done plenty Pauly, she fell in love with a Prince, married him and became popular and nice. How dare she.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #55 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Merely a level playing field of identical units,  who are either cynical opportunists or shameless hucksters  where victim hood is simply another marketing opportunity. 
More often than it's comfortable for many to admit, as sad as that may be.

Often the first person engaged is a manager, ............ then a lawyer.

And in this regard the CheatsFC analogy is perfectly valid.

The rage is driven by the media, today News Ltd and Consolidated are running stories stating Markle was right about "The Media", "The Media" referred to in the 3rd party by News Ltd and Consolidated. Of course they do, .............. they are you ............. they are us!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #56 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
One step away from believing that Grace Tame and Brittany Higgins should be grateful to their abusers for making them famous. 

This kind of highlights one of the issues with the discussion of this topic Paul.

Folks will often accept or reject an allegation as fact based on their own values and personal perceptions of the individuals.

In the case of Brittany Higgins it remains an allegation.
A jury who had listened to all the evidence had failed to come to a decision before the trial was eventually aborted.
That won't stop people believing what they want to believe.
I have no idea what happened in Parliament House.
The jury in the case couldn't be convinced either way at the point the trial was terminated.

Harry and Meghan have made some allegations.
In a similar fashon to the Higgins case the accused have chosen not to respond.
Into the void folks, from the outside, will put their own values, perceptions and life experiences to determine which side  to favour.

Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #57 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
She has done plenty Pauly, she fell in love with a Prince, married him and became popular and nice. How dare she.

Terrific summary, GTC. You reminded us of what is truly important here - love (at the risk of seeming sentimental). On one very real level this is simply a love story. True love. Courageous love. And the petty jealousies and sinister reporting from loud, obnoxious and breathtakingly shallow (yet infuriatingly influential) sections of the community and media.

Love wins. And the likes of Clarkson, Rita, Andrew, Piers and other sections of the media etc., get to baste in their bile, whilst Harry & Meghan get to raise their family in LA and continue their meaningful philanthropic work. A life together of their own creation and choosing. Bravo.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #58 –
Quote from: Lods – on
This kind of highlights one of the issues with the discussion of this topic Paul.

Folks will often accept or reject an allegation as fact based on their own values and personal perceptions of the individuals.

In the case of Brittany Higgins it remains an allegation.
A jury who had listened to all the evidence had failed to come to a decision before the trial was eventually aborted.
That won't stop people believing what they want to believe.
I have no idea what happened in Parliament House.
The jury in the case couldn't be convinced either way at the point the trial was terminated.

Harry and Meghan have made some allegations.
In a similar fashon to the Higgins case the accused have chosen not to respond.
Into the void folks, from the outside, will put their own values, perceptions and life experiences to determine which side  to favour.

No doubt, but that way of thinking in the public sphere works to undermine victims.  Tame and Higgins are smart educated women. They make these allegations fully aware, either through briefing or through self knowledge, that any "rewards" they receive in making such allegations will be dwarfed by years and years of stress, vitriol, character assassination and the like. And they are prepared to endure all that in order to sell a few books, or appear on the telly for their 15 minutes of fame, when a conviction for the offender is far from a certainty ? Somehow I doubt it. The fact that the jury failed to reach a decision in the Higgins case tells you nothing about what really happened.

Re: Harry and Megan

Reply #59 –
Quote from: LP – on
More often than it's comfortable for many to admit, as sad as that may be.

Often the first person engaged is a manager, ............ then a lawyer..........................

Wow. By that logic there must be scores of women out there who are secretly or overtly hoping something horrible happens to them so they can hit the big time. Maybe they already have a manager, a PR person and a book deal stitched up. Appalling.