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Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #105 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Hang on boys it's raining outside let's take training indoors.

The rumour that Kruddler is alluding to has come from many different places over the journey.

I've no doubt about that.
The problem with rumours is that the elements of truth within them are magnified by those with an agenda to push.
It's all part of the destabilising process.
So yep, anyone with anti Ratten agenda would have attached themselves to that one.

It doesn't just go one way either as I'm sure Malthouse has already found out.
 

Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #106 –
True that Lods, just like every coach will have his favourites and his whipping boys.

Ratten could never win though.  Too hard at training and we did shoulders, too soft and we lacked ticker.

The big problem regardless from where i can sit is that its all a matter of opinion.  Who has that opinion is whats most important and not necessarily what tgat opinion is.

I.e.  If judd though out tackling sessions were tough then they probably were tough.  Someone like Lucas though is a different story.  The opposite is also true.  If judd thought training was too easy, and a Thornton thought it was tough...
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #107 –
Isn't training inside when it rains pretty standard across the competition?
 

Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #108 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
True that Lods, just like every coach will have his favourites and his whipping boys.

Ratten could never win though.  Too hard at training and we did shoulders, too soft and we lacked ticker.

The big problem regardless from where i can sit is that its all a matter of opinion.  Who has that opinion is whats most important and not necessarily what tgat opinion is.

I.e.  If judd though out tackling sessions were tough then they probably were tough.  Someone like Lucas though is a different story.  The opposite is also true.  If judd thought training was too easy, and a Thornton thought it was tough...

Yes........ but if it's a case of "'Bozo" said Judd thought training was too easy, and "Bippo" said Thornton reckons it's too hard..... that's a different story.
It's not the direct information that's the problem.
It's the "clowns" who put their own slant on things, relaying the message.

I actually don't take much that comes out of the club as gospel.
The club tend to spin things a fair bit....but there's an even less credible message that comes from folk on the fringe of things.
Factions and their associates who'll slant things in a way that suits their point of view at the time.
I've a feeling it's done incredible damage to attempts to get this club on the right path over the last decade.


Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #109 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: kruddler – on
Ratten wanted to be friends with everyone and couldn't make the tough calls.*

Not sure Thornton, Russell and Bower are on his Christmas card list

History showed that none of them had any success at other clubs and that we basically held onto them for too long. If they cracked it with Ratts its because they overrated themselves and didn't like hearing the truth.

But nonetheless, that is an example of Ratten not being buddy buddy with everyone as your opinion suggests.
Ignorance is bliss.

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!

Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #110 –
Quote from: PassIt2Carrots – on
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: kruddler – on
Ratten wanted to be friends with everyone and couldn't make the tough calls.*

Not sure Thornton, Russell and Bower are on his Christmas card list

History showed that none of them had any success at other clubs and that we basically held onto them for too long. If they cracked it with Ratts its because they overrated themselves and didn't like hearing the truth.

But nonetheless, that is an example of Ratten not being buddy buddy with everyone as your opinion suggests.

Mother Theresa and Ghandi couldn't be buddy buddy with everyone. But they treated everyone the same.

The only players that have question marks over how they were treated under Ratten could clearly be put down to a dose of sour grapes after realising their careers were essentially over.

At the same time, how many disciplinary acts can you recall Ratten dishing out? SFA by my count.

Don't get me wrong, i think Ratten was the exact type of coach we needed at the time. I started the 'Rattens Objectives' thread and he got through 90-95% of them, only falling short in the big categories of Top 4, flag etc. He gave our club what it needed given the history it just came through during the dark ages.

Having said that, the type of coach required to get us through that period and the type of coach the club needed when he was eventually shown the door are 2 different styles.

Ratten brought Carlton back to Carlton without giving us the ultimate success. He gave us a list of decent player, with Judd aside, were not capable of playing the type of elite, consistent football required to take the next step. So we bring in Malthouse who has a history of bringing to his team, exactly what we lacked. His approach can be more alienating compared to Ratten, but the rewards are worth a few casualties along the way.

Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #111 –
Quote from: kruddler – on

At the same time, how many disciplinary acts can you recall Ratten dishing out? SFA by my count.


I'm not sure how you can know that Kruds?
Do you know that for sure?

Quote
The only players that have question marks over how they were treated under Ratten could clearly be put down to a dose of sour grapes after realising their careers were essentially over.

....and wouldn't  the Laidler situation pretty much parallel the  Thornton, Russell, Bower ones. The Russell one at least.

Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #112 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Mother Theresa and Ghandi couldn't be buddy buddy with everyone. But they treated everyone the same.

That's just wrong. Russell was playing great football in the seconds to the extent where Alan Richardson mentioned he should have got more opportunity.
Ignorance is bliss.

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!

Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #113 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: kruddler – on

At the same time, how many disciplinary acts can you recall Ratten dishing out? SFA by my count.


I'm not sure how you can know that Kruds?
Do you know that for sure?

Quote
The only players that have question marks over how they were treated under Ratten could clearly be put down to a dose of sour grapes after realising their careers were essentially over.

....and wouldn't  the Laidler situation pretty much parallel the  Thornton, Russell, Bower ones. The Russell one at least.

1. You can tell that by the ins and outs as much as anything Lods. How many times was Waite dropped under Ratts? Waite has a history of doing dumb things (especially against Richmond) and certainly isn't known for his consistency. Mick dropped him, forced him to play in the 2's. Did Ratts ever do that? I honestly can't recall Ratts dropping anyone that was clearly best 22 (as Waite is/was).

2. Yes, Laidler is the same, but you're missing the point i believe. The ONLY players Ratten 'treated badly' are players whose career was over. So sure, they might have cracked it with Ratts, but what has followed shows Ratts was right and their inability to accept that is why there is/was a rift between player and coach.

As for Laidler, same could be said for him, if his career turns out to be over. However, i reckon he probably still has a little bit of footy in him. Even so, that just goes back to what i said earlier, i expect to lose the odd player because 'Mick was too harsh' in what he demanded. So if Laidler is the only player, bonus.

We were always known as a pack of front runners, down hill skiers, flat track bullies who couldn't match it with the top sides. We had our moments and close calls, but we never really made it into the top echelon. Mainly, IMO because we were not disciplined enough to do the hard running...and that means both ways. If Mick is to turn that mentality around, i expect there to be a few casualties along the way. Someone like Gibbs for instance who looks good with time, space and a nice haircut, often goes missing in the engine room when the heat is on. I expect Micks style to make him look elsewhere and test FA. Which is fine, we want committed players. Some, i have my doubts over, Gibbs is one. Yarran, despite being one of my favourites, was always one i had question marks on. To his credit though he has really taken it up a level this year, i'm impressed.

Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #114 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
1. You can tell that by the ins and outs as much as anything Lods. How many times was Waite dropped under Ratts? Waite has a history of doing dumb things (especially against Richmond) and certainly isn't known for his consistency. Mick dropped him, forced him to play in the 2's. Did Ratts ever do that? I honestly can't recall Ratts dropping anyone that was clearly best 22 (as Waite is/was).

I don't want to waste time going back Kruds....
It's an impossible exercise because we don't know whether Ratten dropped a player  for disciplinary reasons, form or injury.
....and my point is, you have know way of knowing that either.

...but just a quick google as an example

Quote
April 15 2010-ABC Grandstand

Carlton's Bret Thornton and Jarrad Waite have been left out of the team to play Adelaide on Saturday but Essendon will welcome back Michael Hurley, who's served a club-imposed ban. Geelong's Cameron Mooney, Darren Milburn and Brad Ottens will line up for the home game against Port Adelaide.

COMMENTS
- waite not given the time he deserves

-Yep...fully agree,waite is a tremendous player with a lot of pressure on him now,needs more time.
 
-Why would they drop him? Seems nearly as silly as getting rid of a champion full forward. Carlton are ridiculous.

-Yeah i think they have lost there way a bit,waite is a big body and is very skilled,it makes no sense to me....they seem to be heading down to the corner of where are we going and what are we doing avenue,lol.

- There must be more to this than meets the eye. Although not outstanding, he certainly hasn't been their worst.

- Thornton??????? Even though I'm highly critical of his defensive abilities, he's the biggest defender they've got.

Was Thonton done and dusted in 2010?

   

Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #115 –
Dropped Yarran after he sooked in one game too (turned out he had turf toe though)

Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #116 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Was Thonton done and dusted in 2010?

No, but a quick trip to the blueseum found this...
Quote
When the teams hit the newsstands late on Thursday afternoon there were shocks aplenty. In response to the insipid loss against Essendon the Carlton selectors had omitted a couple of favourite pieces of furniture, Bret Thornton and Jarrad Waite. Thornton had been sadly out of form in the previous two outings, while Waite had looked a little lost as he attempted to find his feet on return from a long, knee-related absence.

Cannot recall much of the team makeup of the time nor how bad they each were at the time. Seems it was a clear form issue rather than a wakeup call. Thornton only played 12 games that year, so maybe he was carrying something?

Anyway, i think the crux of it is, Fev was allowed to be fev and he let that spiral out of hand to the point where he was forced to leave. Perhaps  a few disciplinary acts in the mean time may have prevented that, perhaps not. At least give it a try though.

I fear we are going to continue to run around in circles on this.

Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #117 –
We will so we might as well stop  because it will just be tit for tat.

Hate to be seen to be in conflict with the blueseum...fine site....but

Here's my contribution to the pre-match thread on the 15/4/2010
:))

Quote
Dominator_7 wrote:

Word over at TC:

In: Judd, Garlett, White
Out: McLean, Waite, Thornton

IMO the dropping of Waite in absolute insanity.. Is this a sign of Ratts starting to lose the plot ?

Lods wrote-
Total nonsense
Not your post Dom, that action if it were to take place.

Waite more than anything else needs game time and Thornton is a versatile player who should be tried elsewhere....up forward or on a wing.
If Maclean is out Hadley must come in,
Has White been promoted today???/
Believe that rubbish when I actually see it.
...and

Lods wrote
Quote
It's amazing.
Two weeks ago Thornton was thought good enough to be matched up on the best player in the league.
Two weeks later he's not good enough for our starting 22.

and

Lods wrote
Quote
Obviously someone hasn't been doing what they're told.

The omissions are most likely the result of a failure to follow a plan in last weeks games.
If that's the case fair enough, but it's a big statement.
I called it a 'rubbish' move earlier ......it may be a career defining moment for several folk (not just players).

Pretty ironic eh. ;) :D
and I wasn't the only one critical of the move in that thread by a long shot.
 
The truth is we don't know how many players Ratten dropped for disciplinary reasons.

If you were the coach you could make a very public display of disciplining a player as seems to have happened with Waite and Garlett
or
You could give them a rocket in private and tell them they won't be back until they toe the line, but publicly it comes out as........... "we asked him to go back to the VFL and work on few things"

The team know exactly what's going on.
Dropped as an example.
....but we (the public) never really know for sure.

Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #118 –
Quote from: kruddler – on

The only players that have question marks over how they were treated under Ratten could clearly be put down to a dose of sour grapes after realising Did Ratts ever do that? I honestly can't recall Ratts dropping anyone that was clearly best 22 (as Waite is/was).


Nick Stevens might jog your memory Kruds.
Ratten just didn't have the experience to be a good coach, he played footy for us, did a year as an assistant at the wooden spoon team then coached in the Eastern suburbs, it was madness to appoint him in the first place and suicidal to persevere with him for five years.
At the time it was all about marketing and memberships, we were broke, in that sense the appointment worked but football wise it put us back years.
Malthouse is hardened and experienced, he'll sort out the wheat from the chaff.
The only thing in this world worth more than a hill of beans is the Carlton Football Club.

Re: Will it stand up?

Reply #119 –
Quote from: blue4life – on
Quote from: kruddler – on

The only players that have question marks over how they were treated under Ratten could clearly be put down to a dose of sour grapes after realising Did Ratts ever do that? I honestly can't recall Ratts dropping anyone that was clearly best 22 (as Waite is/was).


Nick Stevens might jog your memory Kruds.
Ratten just didn't have the experience to be a good coach, he played footy for us, did a year as an assistant at the wooden spoon team then coached in the Eastern suburbs, it was madness to appoint him in the first place and suicidal to persevere with him for five years.
At the time it was all about marketing and memberships, we were broke, in that sense the appointment worked but football wise it put us back years.

Malthouse is hardened and experienced, he'll sort out the wheat from the chaff.

Get your facts right, Ratten was an assistant for two years at Melbourne, allegedly left under advice from senior members of the AFL coaches association(Parkin and Sheedy) to get experience managing his own team, Melbourne did not want him to go!

Took that EFL team Norwood from nuffas to a premiership in two years, came back to Carlton for 3/4 of a season under Pagan then coached the last 1/4 of a season under our boards nose as caretaker.

Hardly inexperienced compared to Voss or Hird, both who coached zero actual games before being appointed coaches!

Are you letting your bias colour the facts?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"