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Topic: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain (Read 49108 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #90 –
No matter which side of the Malthouse/Ratten fence you sit you can't ignore the elephant in the room, which is our abysmal recruiting for over a decade.
Outside out top 6 picks the only half decent player we've drafted is Robbo at pick 40, the rest have been abject failures, if you're super generous you might include Armfield.
Yeah Menzel looks like he'll measure up but what about our other first rounders in recent years, Watson, Lucas and Bootsma?
As far as our second and third rounders go it's like reading the script from a horror movie.
Grigg, Hampson, Bower, Hartlett, Browne, Austin, Mitchell, McCarthy, Edwards, Davies, Benjamin taken two picks before Lindsay Thomas, Temay who is soon to disappear without a trace.
Where is our Andrew Swallow at 43, Rory Sloane at 44, Dane Swan at 51?
It wouldn't matter if you morphed Barrassi, Matthews and Norm Smith together and got the resultant super coach to the club, only Melbourne has a recruiting record anywhere near as bad as ours.
We are paying the price for our own ineptitude.

The only thing in this world worth more than a hill of beans is the Carlton Football Club.
 

Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #91 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Rowe -if we work on the assumption that player improvements are down to the senior coach, then Mick deserves marks for Rowe. Gives 100% every week, his positioning and marking ability are more than adequate. At this point, I'm happy to have have him in the back half. Buddy has towelled up defenders much better than Rowe. A real improver. As for his disposal……………


Nice summary Paul. Just on Rowe you definitely have to give Mick the credit, his career seemed over but now he's one of our best defenders so he's turned his career around.
Ignorance is bliss.

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!

Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #92 –
Quote from: PassIt2Carrots – on
Quote from: PaulP – on
Rowe -if we work on the assumption that player improvements are down to the senior coach, then Mick deserves marks for Rowe. Gives 100% every week, his positioning and marking ability are more than adequate. At this point, I'm happy to have have him in the back half. Buddy has towelled up defenders much better than Rowe. A real improver. As for his disposal……………


Nice summary Paul. Just on Rowe you definitely have to give Mick the credit, his career seemed over but now he's one of our best defenders so he's turned his career around.

Thanks Chris.

@blue4life
Humor me for a moment if you will. If we take the CFC recruits you name in the middle of your post, and say they had been recruited by the Hawks, Pies, Swans etc. Never mind the obvious retort that "those teams would never recruit spuds etc." I'm just curious, IF they did go to those teams, where do you think those players would be now ?

Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #93 –
Many would play decent footy at the better clubs because they have better support around them (on and off field) and would be fitter.  Laidler is proof of that.  Other clubs would play them in more suitable roles and positions.

Leaving aside the straight out spuds, I think it is a misnomer to say that much of our list "wouldn't get a game at club X"... maybe not in current form but I reckon many would.  For example; Garlett, going at 40 goals a year would, right now, no.

The question going through my mind is WHY ARE THESE BLOKES NOT PLAYING TO THEIR POTENTIAL because many clearly can play?  Why do blokes have to leave to play to their potential elsewhere???   Why are there deficiencies not being addressed???
DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #94 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Just my thoughts on some of our players :

Murph - has the face and body of a 12 year old pre pubescent boy, but led by example and was BOG for mine  Agree

Gibbs - thankfully kept his usual pack skirting to a minimum, impacted a few contests, a couple of dodgy disposals, and whilst not great, was still pretty good Perhaps a bit better than that

Judd - quiet, not much impact, went ok. Agree

Simmo - is he injured ? Seems slower than usual. Some good, some not so good. Agree

Jamo -  battled hard against a very well drilled forward line, carrying one of the elite forwards of the comp. Agree

Rowe -if we work on the assumption that player improvements are down to the senior coach, then Mick deserves marks for Rowe. Gives 100% every week, his positioning and marking ability are more than adequate. At this point, I'm happy to have have him in the back half. Buddy has towelled up defenders much better than Rowe. A real improver. As for his disposal…………… Agree

Levi - same as Rowe, could almost be classified as a coaching success story. Big and strong, positions himself well, reasonable leap, and soft sticky hands most forwards would kill for. But his kicking…….. I will personally pay Barker's wage, and forgive him all his obvious shortcomings and past failures, if he can get Levi to kick straight. A straight kicking Levi would be something special. At this point in time, his awful kicking means that you can only play him out of the goal square if you want to get maximum return for our F50 entries. Anything outside the goal square will rarely result in a goal. Agree, but his disposal does seem to have improved markedly, his good weeks he kicks reasonably well.

2E- has gotten better as the season has progressed, but still way off his best. Looks a little lost TBH.Agree, I love the guy but he has struggled all year

Walks - this one really breaks my heart. His season has been shizen, and last night was no exception. I hope he can get back to his best. Love the guy. Agree

Yazz- we got the bad Yazz last night. Don't think I saw him once run and carry the ball more than 15m. Seemed very happy to pass it off asap. Obviously thought the trip on the plane was for a holiday. His playful jousting with Buddy is a bad look and has to stop asap. He doesn't seem to take the game all that seriously, but if so, he should save it for after the game. Needs to be given pre game injections of bacteria to induce real white line fever. Agree

Everiit - still not seeing the love for this guy. I can't work out why he's there, what his attributes are, or why he improves the team. This may be a criticism of me as much as him. Either way, not convinced. Totally disagree.  He's no champ but he has height, run, versatlity, big and pretty accurate kick, can run with guys, lot to like

Docherty - also not sure about this bloke, but seems better than Everitt. Disagree.  he has shown a lot, though looked tired for some weeks now and might warrant a rest

Brock - always loved Brock, but as per 2E, not having  great season and seems a little lost. Took a good mark and goal. Think he might be cooked.  His lack of pace just allows us to be opened up so easily that the good he does - which is getting less and less as time rolls on - is just nowhere near enough to balance the ledger
Johnson - no comment to make Went missing, but a young kid who showed something last week and came up against a quality he's never seen before can be excused to some extent

Ellard - always hoped he'd do well, but struggles too much at this level. Agree

Curnow - if we could get his disposal to improve, he could find a place in our starting 22. At this point, jury's out for mine. Disagree.  Like to see his disposal better but in a run with role his elite endurance is ideal - and sadly lacking across the team

Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #95 –
Quote from: Professer E – on
Many would play decent footy at the better clubs because they have better support around them (on and off field) and would be fitter.  Laidler is proof of that.  Other clubs would play them in more suitable roles and positions.

Leaving aside the straight out spuds, I think it is a misnomer to say that much of our list "wouldn't get a game at club X"... maybe not in current form but I reckon many would.  For example; Garlett, going at 40 goals a year would, right now, no.

The question going through my mind is WHY ARE THESE BLOKES NOT PLAYING TO THEIR POTENTIAL because many clearly can play?  Why do blokes have to leave to play to their potential elsewhere???   Why are there deficiencies not being addressed???

Yep, and that's what my question was hinting at. A lot of talk about recruitment, which can be luck and guesswork as much as anything else. Development, however, is much less based on luck and guesswork, and is much more controllable. Get the right people in place, and off you go. Fitness, conditioning, the right support structures and practice, practice, practice.

@ianh
Fair enough matey.

Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #96 –
Quote from: PaulP – on

Thanks Chris.

@blue4life
Humor me for a moment if you will. If we take the CFC recruits you name in the middle of your post, and say they had been recruited by the Hawks, Pies, Swans etc. Never mind the obvious retort that "those teams would never recruit spuds etc." I'm just curious, IF they did go to those teams, where do you think those players would be now ?

A few have gone to other clubs, I guess you could say that Grigg has done OK but it any of the rest of them were any good they would have been given the opportunity.
You can't polish a turd Paul.
I left out a few more of our earlier failures as well and concentrated on the period since we got back in the draft in 2004, Jordan Russell was actually a good selection from a shallow draft but prior to that we drafted Livingstone, Wiggins and Sporn in the top 15, if any of them had worked they could all have still been playing, they were in the same draft as Nick Riewoldt, Shaun Burgoyne and Ted Richards.
In that same draft our second and third rounders were Blake Campbell and Sean O'Keefe, do they ring a bell?
We've missed out on a whole generation of experienced players but we have no one to blame but ourselves.
It's a hangover from the Elliott days, we never embraced the draft and didn't devote the resources necessary, the days of buying Kernahan, Bradley, Motley and Dorotich as a job lot are long gone.
The only thing in this world worth more than a hill of beans is the Carlton Football Club.

Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #97 –
Quote from: PaulP – on

Yep, and that's what my question was hinting at. A lot of talk about recruitment, which can be luck and guesswork as much as anything else.

Recruiting is not an exact science and no one is suggesting that it is, but 12 or 14 years of failure can't be put down to bad luck.
The only thing in this world worth more than a hill of beans is the Carlton Football Club.

Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #98 –
@ianh

Re. Brock, I agree that he is nowhere near it for pace and has become a net liability for us. Had a debate with a fellow CFC supporter at the Saints game who thought Brock was a solid contributor and not a worry. He was OK some of the time in that game but even so he was shown up to me as archetypical of our midfield problems. Can look good when he has got the ball in the clear, but even then makes the odd critical error and turns it over.

When he hasn't got the ball is where his problems really show up - he just cannot get near opposition ball carriers to even think about laying a tackle or forcing a turnover. He knows that all too well and you can see him visibly just give up even trying to catch them. That IMO is disastrous, especially v. teams like the Swans and while we are relying on players of Brocks standard we will never get any better.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #99 –
There is a very simple answer.
Not good enough
Warnock
Mcclean
Ellard
Touhy
Graham
White
Bell
Not hard enough
Garlett
Yarran
Not skilled enough
Walker
Simpson
Rowe
Cas
Robo
Curnow
Watson
Armfield
That leaves
Gibbs,murph,jamo,Hendo,doc,Everitt,menz,Judd and we are stuck with Thomas
The numbers just do not ad up for us to compete against the big boys.
Must go at seasons end
Warnock,McLean,Judd,Waite,ellard,graham,white,armfield,Tuohy,Watson and a few more that are playing in the twos and also ad the three that are already gone.
Start again if we want to get. Anywhere in the next ten years
Like it or not at least it's my opinion.

Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #100 –
Here are the major reasons why we are sh1te IMO. It's mainly to do with our midfield, which I've harped on about before. Our established mids leave a lot to be desired and we have precious few coming through, It needs urgent attention if we are to get any better.

Murphy – OK but not physically strong and can get pushed around. Improving here though.

Gibbs – OK, but not been too fond of the hard stuff and tended to skirt packs. Shown more recently.

Judd – Solid contributor, but for how much longer.

McLean – Glacier slow, poor in terms of stopping the opposition mids.

Bell – Physical but lacks skill, finesse and vision.

Robinson – Goes hard but again lacks skill, especially disposal can be a problem.

Curnow – Strictly a shut-down player. Poor disposal.

Carrazzo – Injury prone, nearing the end.

Armfield – Pacy but error prone, lacks high level skills.

Lucas – Gone.

Thomas – Jury out.

Ellard – Gone.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #101 –
Quote from: LP – on
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Personally I think we should be trying to use older players as the sub. I mentioned this a couple of years ago that we should use Scotland as a sub because we know he would come on and just get the footy.

Not sure older players work as subs, spend too long on the bench and they get soft tissue injuries. Get another player injured early and they have to front a full game possibly after weeks of playing pieces here and there.

I don't think the problem isn't the sub use by the way, I think the clubs haven't woken up to how to correctly structure selection when subs are to be used.

Touhy should be sub. I think he's got all the aspects of a good sub player! I mentioned it in the pre-game thread
Why did the Carlton FC fall? So they could learn to pick themselves up.

Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #102 –
Quote from: Blue_MM – on

Touhy should be sub. I think he's got all the aspects of a good sub player! I mentioned it in the pre-game thread

I think he should get a run in the midfield.
He's still learning the game but the best way to learn is by doing, he's strong, tough, reasonably quick, tackles well and has good skills.
He'd make mistakes short term but let's face it, we won't be pushing top four any time soon.
The only thing in this world worth more than a hill of beans is the Carlton Football Club.

Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #103 –
Quote from: blue4life – on
Quote from: Blue_MM – on

Touhy should be sub. I think he's got all the aspects of a good sub player! I mentioned it in the pre-game thread

I think he should get a run in the midfield.
He's still learning the game but the best way to learn is by doing, he's strong, tough, reasonably quick, tackles well and has good skills.
He'd make mistakes short term but let's face it, we won't be pushing top four any time soon.

If only we had two of him. :D

I agree though. He has the best acceleration in our team, something we could use in the guts. When he's at his best, he is a very good footballer
Why did the Carlton FC fall? So they could learn to pick themselves up.

Re: Carlton vs Sydney: Post match Pain

Reply #104 –
Bit scary really given the Swans only have Goodes and McVeigh  who you would put in the old category and McVeigh is still braining teams in terms of getting the footy and using it well...we are along way off the pace in terms of development when you see their kids like Parker, Smith etc.
You look at numpties like Lucas, Mcinnes, Watson etc and we look very poor in comparison.....Buddy, Reid and Tippet are not old so they  are going to have plenty of firepower for seasons to come.
Its hard for me to see where we can make quick ground on them over the next few years...