Pass Mark 2015

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Re: Pass Mark 2015

Reply #120 – January 14, 2015, 09:10:06 pm

@ Elwood,

Is Jones limited marking power a result of the footy delivery to him, or is he not strong enough in the body to stand his ground. Haven't seen enough of his pack marking. He might need to develop his ability to be a leading target to get his hands on the footy. He might need to fill the void Waite has left behind and work hard at earning the ball when it comes to ground and trying to turn his opponent inside out.

Re: Pass Mark 2015

Reply #121 – January 14, 2015, 09:43:52 pm

Quote from: Mantis on January 14, 2015, 09:10:06 pm

@ Elwood,

Is Jones limited marking power a result of the footy delivery to him, or is he not strong enough in the body to stand his ground. Haven't seen enough of his pack marking. He might need to develop his ability to be a leading target to get his hands on the footy. He might need to fill the void Waite has left behind and work hard at earning the ball when it comes to ground and trying to turn his opponent inside out.

EB will no doubt add his insights but it seems to me that Jones's marking strength is limited to when he gets a clear run and can take off well before the ball arrives. He is probably the direct opposite of Waite and it would probably be true to say that his strengths don't overlap with those of Henderson and Casboult.

Re: Pass Mark 2015

Reply #122 – January 14, 2015, 09:48:27 pm

Quote from: Mantis on January 14, 2015, 09:10:06 pm

@ Elwood,

Is Jones limited marking power a result of the footy delivery to him, or is he not strong enough in the body to stand his ground. Haven't seen enough of his pack marking. He might need to develop his ability to be a leading target to get his hands on the footy. He might need to fill the void Waite has left behind and work hard at earning the ball when it comes to ground and trying to turn his opponent inside out.

Mants....Fair point on delivery and amount of supply and that no doubt will be the argument from Mick and the recruiters that Jones didnt get the service at the Bulldogs to
fulfil his potential.
Delivery hasnt been our strong point either and I dont think we rate very highly in corridor work in terms of being effective with entry into the forward 50....
Jones is more of a leadup player who can also take the big speccy over the back of the pack but I wouldnt call him a pack marking player like Casboult is.
I think the idea will be to play him as the third tall target and try and get our main bag of goals from Henderson and a couple each from Casboult and Jones...

Jones best games have been vs the Tigers so i reckon you can lock him for rnd1

Re: Pass Mark 2015

Reply #123 – January 14, 2015, 10:02:18 pm

Fisher was a third forward in the past, so surely Jones will offer more than he was able to. We need to stretch a defensive outfit, and only one key forward is not enough in this modern game. Levi and Henderson will be good up forward and you would think Jones and Everitt could be the third forwards we will use in most of our games. Watson is still a question if he gets used.

Re: Pass Mark 2015

Reply #124 – January 15, 2015, 06:28:36 am

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on January 14, 2015, 09:48:27 pm

Quote from: Mantis on January 14, 2015, 09:10:06 pm
@ Elwood,

Is Jones limited marking power a result of the footy delivery to him, or is he not strong enough in the body to stand his ground. Haven't seen enough of his pack marking. He might need to develop his ability to be a leading target to get his hands on the footy. He might need to fill the void Waite has left behind and work hard at earning the ball when it comes to ground and trying to turn his opponent inside out.

Mants....Fair point on delivery and amount of supply and that no doubt will be the argument from Mick and the recruiters that Jones didnt get the service at the Bulldogs to
fulfil his potential.

Unfortunately we are even more indirect than the Doggies.

Re: Pass Mark 2015

Reply #125 – January 15, 2015, 10:22:03 am

^^

I dont know if being direct necessary means hitting leading targets though.

I would have thought that would be the result of slower movement of the ball and waiting for the right lead.

Still, we will have to see how it pans out. We have an interesting dynamic in our forwardline, and of the recognised "key forwards" they all seem to offer something different.

Watson seems to be your older style full forward who is strong in the contest.
Jones is a third tall in a key position players body (Given Waite's age, I think we have ended up with a bit of a win here as I dont expect Jones to be as good as Waite, but he will play Waite's role for about 8 years longer that Waite would have continued to).
Henderson is as much a hard working CHF that will get up the ground a lot.
Casboult is the sort of bloke that will smash a pack and pinch hit in the ruck.

I dont think we can play all of them at once, but it means we have varying dynamics at play. FWIW, direct play would probably suit Casboult the most as it relies less on good service, and more on the forward doing something with the ball which seems to be our lowest percentage attack as he wont win contests all day, and he doesnt finish well enough even if he does win them.

Re: Pass Mark 2015

Reply #126 – January 15, 2015, 11:52:36 am

Quote from: Thryleon on January 15, 2015, 10:22:03 am

I dont think we can play all of them at once, but it means we have varying dynamics at play. FWIW, direct play would probably suit Casboult the most as it relies less on good service, and more on the forward doing something with the ball which seems to be our lowest percentage attack as he wont win contests all day, and he doesnt finish well enough even if he does win them.

How is it low percentage football? Direct play results in forwards getting one on one with their opponents and as the ball usually moves through the middle, there's a wider range of options available.

Re: Pass Mark 2015

Reply #127 – January 15, 2015, 02:13:23 pm

Will direct mean that we hit targets?

The highest percentage score will probably come from an uncontested mark inside 50 (lead or not).

That might mean getting players to provide seperation, blocks, and decoy targets. Direct play wont help that.

Direct play is suited to a team that has Good targets inside 50 at all times. Last I checked, our forwards are reasonable, but none of them are coleman medalists. There is no right answer here, you might go more direct vs some teams and not others, or if you were chasing a game.

Re: Pass Mark 2015

Reply #128 – January 15, 2015, 08:34:35 pm

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on January 14, 2015, 09:03:04 pm

Quote from: Lods on January 14, 2015, 04:01:39 pm
Quote from: Gointocarlton on January 14, 2015, 03:52:43 pm
Quote from: Lods on January 14, 2015, 03:44:03 pm
if Jones' goal output isn't the equal or better than Waite's that will be disappointing.
With all due respect, that's a tad unfair. On his day, when fit and firing, Waite could destroy anyone. Age and injury unfortunately caught up with him at the Blues and was fair too inconsistent for what we needed (My mail was that his back has never recovered from the injury two years ago and never will). I will be ecstatic if Jones could surpass Waite however I will be more than satisfied if he could just be a more consistent contributor than Waite.

On his day he could....but his day was much too infrequent.... for whatever reason.

Jarrad Waite will always be a huge case of "what might have been".

Given that Jones will only have to go at about a goal and a half a game, he wont have to go too hard to match Waite's goal output....Note:I didn't mention anything about Waite's impact on the forward line, and his around the ground play...that's another factor altogether.

Kicked 42 of his 68 goals at the Docklands has Jones but struggles anywhere else.....max bag he has kicked in a game is 4 goals......doesnt have the X factor of Waite and with an average of only 4 marks a game will need to improve his stats to become the power forward we need....
Averages one goal a game and lets hope Mick can improve him as a player because based on his stats its hard to see him improving his output to the level we need to be a top team..

The first time Liam Jones kicked 3 or more goals in a game....he was 22years 50 days old. He kicked 4.
The first time Jarrad Waite kicked 3 or more goals in a game....he was 22years 65 days old. He kicked 3.

People forget how old Jones is, and forget how much future he has in front of him.

It is certainly not beyond Jones to 'outdo' Waite come the end of his career. He may not have the athletic freakishness that Waite possesses, but i reckon he's probably got a bit more consistency ahead of him.

Re: Pass Mark 2015

Reply #129 – January 15, 2015, 09:38:12 pm

Of course, Waite didn't play as a key forward at the start of his career and it may be more meaningful to compare their careers after they'd spent the same number of years in the system.

After seven years, Jones has played 66 games, taken 269 marks, had 612 disposals and kicked 68 goals. At the same stage of his career, Waite had played 106 games, taken 532 marks, had 1461 disposals and kicked 107 goals. Both didn't crack it for a game in their first season.

Wishful thinking is all well and good, particularly at this time of the year, but Jones has a lot of improvement ahead of him if he is to cement a place in our side, let alone come close to Waite's contribution.

Re: Pass Mark 2015

Reply #130 – January 15, 2015, 10:37:44 pm

Quote from: kruddler on January 15, 2015, 08:34:35 pm

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 on January 14, 2015, 09:03:04 pm
Quote from: Lods on January 14, 2015, 04:01:39 pm
Quote from: Gointocarlton on January 14, 2015, 03:52:43 pm
Quote from: Lods on January 14, 2015, 03:44:03 pm
if Jones' goal output isn't the equal or better than Waite's that will be disappointing.
With all due respect, that's a tad unfair. On his day, when fit and firing, Waite could destroy anyone. Age and injury unfortunately caught up with him at the Blues and was fair too inconsistent for what we needed (My mail was that his back has never recovered from the injury two years ago and never will). I will be ecstatic if Jones could surpass Waite however I will be more than satisfied if he could just be a more consistent contributor than Waite.

On his day he could....but his day was much too infrequent.... for whatever reason.

Jarrad Waite will always be a huge case of "what might have been".

Given that Jones will only have to go at about a goal and a half a game, he wont have to go too hard to match Waite's goal output....Note:I didn't mention anything about Waite's impact on the forward line, and his around the ground play...that's another factor altogether.

Kicked 42 of his 68 goals at the Docklands has Jones but struggles anywhere else.....max bag he has kicked in a game is 4 goals......doesnt have the X factor of Waite and with an average of only 4 marks a game will need to improve his stats to become the power forward we need....
Averages one goal a game and lets hope Mick can improve him as a player because based on his stats its hard to see him improving his output to the level we need to be a top team..

The first time Liam Jones kicked 3 or more goals in a game....he was 22years 50 days old. He kicked 4.
The first time Jarrad Waite kicked 3 or more goals in a game....he was 22years 65 days old. He kicked 3.

People forget how old Jones is, and forget how much future he has in front of him.

It is certainly not beyond Jones to 'outdo' Waite come the end of his career. He may not have the athletic freakishness that Waite possesses, but i reckon he's probably got a bit more consistency ahead of him.

Maybe a fitter Jones with some belief that he is valued will improve....
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/carlton-recruit-liam-jones-take-extra-step-before-new-journey-20141018-1180sp.html

Re: Pass Mark 2015

Reply #131 – January 15, 2015, 11:17:11 pm

If Jones is doing everything he can to be the best prepared footy player he ever was, he is doing the best he can for the club. We can't ask for anything more than that. I will take a player with an extremely high work ethic any day of the week. He is only 23 and still a kid at 198cm tall. Didn't realise he was that tall to be honest.