Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: 2011 to 2015 comparisons (Read 26455 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: more

Reply #30 –
Quote from: MosquitoFleet – on
For the benefit of the uneducated. ..luck can be used in a descriptive sense of having  a religious or moral influence and something out of ones control. ...

a fluke can be something based upon an improbable occurance

Or we can go with:

noun

An unlikely chance occurrence, especially a surprising piece of luck:
their victory was a bit of a fluke

verb
Achieve (something) by luck rather than skill.

But since I am uneducated, I'm not sure if I read that correctly. What is Oxford anyway?
"We are a club in a hurry"

#united #reset
 

Re: more

Reply #31 –
Quote from: shadesy – on
Or we can go with:

noun

An unlikely chance occurrence, especially a surprising piece of luck:
their victory was a bit of a fluke

verb
Achieve (something) by luck rather than skill.

But since I am uneducated, I'm not sure if I read that correctly. What is Oxford anyway?

i would rather go with my interpretation and context...

class over? :P

Re: 2011 to 2015 comparisons

Reply #33 –
Not sure how it was a fluke? We were the 5th best team and we finished 5th.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: 2011 to 2015 comparisons

Reply #35 –
There are a few arguments that are consistently used that are sometimes contradictory and other times flat out crystal balling.

1.  If we had Fev we would have gone on to win the whole thing.

ISSUE - Lachie Henderson held up our key position defense for about half the season when Jamo was missing.  You cant have Hendo without missing Fev.  Hendo was part of that trade therefore, 2011 may not have been as good as it was, without trading Fev away.

2.  The umpires cost us dearly in that final against West Coast.

ISSUE - Not as much as we cost ourselves.  We lost by 3 points.  That particular incident Glass vs Walker, was an incident you see paid some ways and not the other, weekly.  Sometimes it goes your way, sometimes it doesnt.  You want to write to the letter of the law, sure, its a free.  You pay that every week, and everyone will complain about the game not being what it used to be.  We made numerous issues in much the same vein we do now.  Errant kicking, turnovers, not playing the percentages well enough, and I seem to recall an incident where we gave Jack Darling a double goal by pushing and shoving (Marcus Davies the culprit).

3.  Who knows what we would have done a week later.

ISSUE - statistically, the team that doesnt finish top 4 and wins that first final, doesnt go on to make the grand final.  History is not on our side in that regard.  Statistically speaking we were more likely to lose the following week, and miss the grand final.  The actuality means that you never know until it happens, but as intimated already by LP, Geelong were relatively untouchable that season.  Odds are not in our favour to have progressed any further.  Getting to that preliminary final would have been huge for us, and we cannot know what could have occurred, but we were starting to run out of fit bodies by then anyway.

4.  2012 injuries killed us.

ISSUE - They did, but not as much as our inability to win the contested ball.  We looked good for 3 rounds, until the Bombers killed us.  Since that day, Chris Judd has been a cut above the rest weekly.  we have lived and died by his form ever since, and now even good form from him cant do it, because he is not the beast that he was.  We have been bullied out of the game more often than not, and have gone meekly.  This is endemic cultural problem at our footy club that I link back to our cap breaches and our club just going along quietly wanting to reinvent itself as nothing but complicit.

5.  Luck has nothing to do with it.

ISSUE - even the best sides get lucky some times.  Hawthorn would be minus one flag had Geelong kicked straight in 2008.  They worked their tails off, but they are lucky that Mooney couldnt hit the side of a barn from 5 metres away, and that Ottens running into an open goal stuffed his kick.  These incidents all led to Geelong dropping off.
Luck has a lot to do with everything.  I dont believe we were unlucky in 2011, I think we were unlucky and have been probably every season since, particularly in the sub area.  We have used our sub in the first quarter so frequently it has ceased being entertaining.  Statistically, the earlier you use the sub, the more frequently you lose.  Its not the sole reason we have lost a lot of winnable games, but it showed its face again on Thursday.

6.  we couldnt have won a flag with Ratten.

ISSUE - Any coach can win a flag.  You give them enough time, and the right support and odds are if they have a football brain, they will get there eventually. You put a bloke like Scott in charge of a list like Geelongs, and you have yourself a premiership coach.

Is he a good coach?  Maybe, but referencing luck, had Podsiadly not gotten injured in the Grand Final to force a sub that actually worked in Geelong's favour (Hawkins went permantly forward, whilst West rucked out the rest of the match) and resulted in them winning the game, we could be looking at a Collingwood premiership in 2011 instead.

The reality is, half of these arguments are circular.  You could argue either perspective and be right/wrong accordingly.

Until our football club sticks to its convictions, none of our coaches will achieve anything.  You dont back your man and he wont deliver, and that is the only guarantee in football.


"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: 2011 to 2015 comparisons

Reply #36 –
These debates are pointless, posters flip like weathervanes.

At club level;
The club kiboshed Ratten and appointed Malthouse, at the time it was implied they needed to make the best of the list and they expected success under Malthouse. It's safe to assume then that one of the reasons Ratten got the chop was because he did not make the best of a list the club thought could do better.

Then the team starts to slide, the club axes the recruiters, rebuilds the list, but not officially and now we are told the same club is playing the long term game but quoting, "It can happen very quickly!" Really!!! Add to that we appear to be giving under-done or injured players games which seems to be a contradiction to the long term planning!

So in summary that list that the club thought could do better, the 2010/11 list that list that caused the under-performing coach to get the chop, was apparently NFG and needed rebuilding!

On the supporter side;
Some claim we were NBG back in 2010/11 when we made finals two years running, back then when we mostly defeated sides below us and lost to sides above us.

Now some of the same supporters claim we are better when we lose to sides above us and also get beaten by sides that were below us back in 2010/11!

Further they claim we have a much better and far more capable coach right now, who has a better list after rebuilding the 2010/11 NBG list, yet our results look set to slide!

And all the while they still imply the bloke that made finals twice, and did so with a list that was supposedly NGB, is a dud coach!

As each season passes it is becoming embarrassing because Ratten, you know the guy Brett "The Fluke" Ratten, is looking like some sort of AFL genius or overachiever! ;)
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: 2011 to 2015 comparisons

Reply #37 –
Back up your sweeping statements with facts LP, my history is there to see.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: 2011 to 2015 comparisons

Reply #38 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Back up your sweeping statements with facts LP, my history is there to see.

Yes, you're paranoid we know! :D
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: 2011 to 2015 comparisons

Reply #40 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
and you talk a load of crap that you can't back up.

I learn quickly from you! ;)
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: 2011 to 2015 comparisons

Reply #41 –
I think it would have been pretty hard to back up after the 2011 final in Perth.

09 & 10 are the real "what if" games for me... 09 we had Judd & Fev, 10 we had Judd, we lost two close interstate finals. I think we could have made a prelim in one of those years if we had of won (we would have played the doggies the following week in both years). 2010 in particular.

Luck does play a massive part... 2009 to 2011 were dominated by victorian teams, yet we ended up playing 3 out of 4 finals interstate.  I reckon that is a bit stiff. Yes, you control your own destiny, but where other teams finish around you is beyond your control.



Re: 2011 to 2015 comparisons

Reply #42 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
2015 compared to 2011?

2011 obviously was a better side for the time, we finished 5th that year and won a final. We probably won't finish top 10 this year due to the rebuild.

However due to the evolution of the game I would still pick our current side to easily account for the 2011 one.

Why have we gotten worse relative to the rest of the comp though? Our group still had improvement in it, age wise. The 2013 team was supposedly entering its premiership window.

If we had the age profile of our 2001 side, fine but our list should still be on the up. So how did we get jumped?

Re: 2011 to 2015 comparisons

Reply #43 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
2.  The umpires cost us dearly in that final against West Coast.

ISSUE - Not as much as we cost ourselves.  We lost by 3 points.  That particular incident Glass vs Walker, was an incident you see paid some ways and not the other, weekly.  Sometimes it goes your way, sometimes it doesnt.  You want to write to the letter of the law, sure, its a free.  You pay that every week, and everyone will complain about the game not being what it used to be.  We made numerous issues in much the same vein we do now.  Errant kicking, turnovers, not playing the percentages well enough, and I seem to recall an incident where we gave Jack Darling a double goal by pushing and shoving (Marcus Davies the culprit).

Mate you know you have officially lost it when you write a post like this. The Walker free was fifty fifty no doubt but you seem to be forgetting the other twenty odd free kicks we were screwed with. Even non Carlton people have told me they remember that game and how hard we were screwed. Hell check out MBB (the anti-Christ Ratten)'s commentary in the after game thread. If you're glossing over stuff like that I guess you need to ask yourself the question as to whether you're arguing for a legitimate reason, or just looking to stand your ground and be stubborn.
Ignorance is bliss.

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!

Re: 2011 to 2015 comparisons

Reply #44 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Back up your sweeping statements with facts LP, my history is there to see.

Sweeping non factual statements? Like 'we peaked in 2011'?
Ignorance is bliss.

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!