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Topic: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain (Read 76070 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #120 –
My father used to tell me that it's far better to lose an argument to a wise person than try and win one with an idiot.

But, I'll give it one more shot in the knowledge that I am dealing with a logically flawed individual.

Firstly, asking the under 18 players if they found Goodes actions offensive is, as i said in my previous post,  like asking Gays if they want Gay marriage. I'll add to that, since you probably couldn't comprehend that analogy, and relay one which even you might understand. It's like asking Joffa if he loves Collingwood, or Carlton supporters if they hate Collingwood.  What do you really think the answer would be??

Secondly, if you had actually comprehended what you were reading in my post, and I'm assuming, possibly incorrectly, that you read all of it, you would have seen that nowhere in that post did I even insinuate that the young Indigenous team would have been offended by Goodes' actions.

The point that I was making that  I would hope would have even been clear to you, was that they performed the dance before the game and NOT during the game itself like Goodes did.

Only an illogical warped mind, could possibly have garnered from that accurate statement, that somehow I was insinuating that the under 18's would have been offended at Goodes actions. In fact, I reckon they would have loved it, and been proud in the knowledge that one of their heroes had emulated their dance.

My point, once again, is all about time and place.

If you can't accept that and believe that the time and place, in front of the Carlton supporters who, and I repeat it again in the forlorn hope that even you might understand what I am saying, had up to that point in time treated him with respect, that Goodes performed his war dance is O.K. because it's indigenous round, then that's how you should have left it, and even though I disagree with you, we could agree to disagree.

However, in no post of yours that replies to mine, or those that have disagreed with your point of view, have you even attempted to  address the issues that I and others have raise in a reasoned manner. That's because you are trying to turn this debate into one of political correctness, and possible racism on the part of those who disagree with your point of view.
 

Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #121 –
Time to settle down, children. There simply isn't any good reason to start escalating things. Agree to disagree and move on.
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #122 –
Quote from: crashlander – on
Time to settle down, children. There simply isn't any good reason to start escalating things. Agree to disagree and move on.

Yep, mate, just said that in my post.

It's buried in there somewhere ;) ;) ;D
 

Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #123 –
I just did the war dance in front of my missus hoping my luck might change.

She was VERY unimpressed :-[ :-[ :-X :-X :-\ :-\

Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #124 –
There are times I think we should recruit a Kiwi just so he can do the haka before the game. See how they like them apples.
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #125 –
Don't like commenting too much on the Goodes nonsense as it is mostly trivial. But he is just a bit of a knob really. The public does not often warm to overly earnest self important types, so it is hardly surprising his antics provoke such a reaction.

Fine footballer but a bit of a knob. If he wants to make a contribution to society in the form he seems to desire then grandstanding on the footy field is an undignified way to do it.

Changing social norms and customs requires changing minds and attitudes, and carrying on like a bit of a dill after kicking a goal in a 10 goal plus win against the league easybeats is not a sensible way to go about it.

Howsabout Goodes publishes something about new ways to address the dreadful mortality rates among indigenous Australians or that life expectancy for the indigenous NT population is in the low 60s? Discussing actual substantive issues that require complex policy responses will garner respect and change minds. Shrill claims about discrimination when you are a millionaire footy player will not, as the current ferment demonstrates.

Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #126 –
Quote from: bignic – on
My father used to tell me that it's far better to lose an argument to a wise person than try and win one with an idiot.

But, I'll give it one more shot in the knowledge that I am dealing with a logically flawed individual.

I'll add to that, since you probably couldn't comprehend that analogy, and relay one which even you might understand.

The point that I was making that  I would hope would have even been clear to you,

Only an illogical warped mind,

and I repeat it again in the forlorn hope that even you might understand what I am saying,


Hey BN, I tried to show you respect but this post is littered with insults and written/edited after Crashlander said no more. You realise that's a sure sign of someone losing the debate? Indigenous dance in Indigenous round, only an idiot would suggest it's the wrong time and place. ;)
Ignorance is bliss.

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!

Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #127 –
Everyone is comparing the Goodes war cry to the Haka.   Last i saw the haka is used on opposition teams, not supporters. 

Just saying

 

Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #128 –
Quote from: age – on
Everyone is comparing the Goodes war cry to the Haka.   Last i saw the haka is used on opposition teams, not supporters. 

Just saying
Agree it was ridiculous. He's lost my respect because I had been giving him the benefit of the doubt of not being a tool but sorry doing that at the 20 Carlton supporters that turned up including a young girl you can see sitting there completely stunned and using the fact it was indigenous round to make it okay, just makes it less so.

War dances are supposed to be at the opposition not at little kids in a crowd.

I think he was stung by the Hawks game but too gutless to show it so waited til this week using the round as an excuse to get something back at an opposition crowd.

Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #129 –
This is really tricky

It's a really difficult situation to make a judgement on and it depends a bit on perspective. I reckon it’s one of those times when there are elements of both sides that need to be considered.

I thought Goodes' éxplanation straight after the game was a good one and it pretty much put it to bed for me. What better time for an indigenous celebration than the indigenous round.

On the other hand if you're sitting in the stand, with no background information as to what was occurring... your team is heading for defeat, and the player kicks a goal and charges towards you waving an imaginary spear, you would probably regard it as an aggressive gesture and would respond accordingly.

Fans cannot be mind readers...
The majority wouldn't think.... "Oh that's just Adam expressing his pride in his indigenous heritage"
To them it would seem like he was saying "stick that one up you."

Had he turned around and did it as he headed back towards the centre it probably wouldn't be an issue.

I've no doubt there's an element of racisim in criticism of Goodes.
I'd like to think it's a small one.
I also think there's an element of disrespect towards him in a similar fashion to players who are seen to exploit the rules and are squealers and divers.
and then...
Some folk obviously just don't take to him as an opposition player.
(I can think of a hundred Essendon players I feel/ have felt that way about ;) :D)

I didn't have a huge problem with the dance but I can understand the "time, place and manner of execution" argument.
While it may have showed a pride and respect for his culture it would be hard for those on the receiving end to view it as respectful towards them.

My understanding is that it wasn't a traditional indigenous 'dance' in the manner of the Maori ‘’haka’’ but rather a modern compilation developed for an underage team.
As such a football audience would have little or no knowledge of its significance and take it on face value.

Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #130 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Had he turned around and did it as he headed back towards the centre it probably wouldn't be an issue.

I've no doubt there's an element of racisim in criticism of Goodes.

It's no accident he charged towards the crowd, not towards the goals, not with or towards team-mates, not towards Swans supporters.

It appears to me he is learning to profit from his ethnicity, using his heritage as a money maker and attention seeking, in effect prostituting his heritage! His efforts do nothing for peace, harmony or equality. He is more radical than anything else, he has become almost an embarrassment as Australian of the Year. His efforts are destructive not constructive, he is the antithesis of Rosie Batty! Perhaps he came through an abusive childhood and thinks the fist is the solution to all problems!

And as I have stated before, Caucasians have no monopoly on racism!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #131 –
Quote from: Lods – on
This is really tricky

It's a really difficult situation to make a judgement on and it depends a bit on perspective. I reckon it’s one of those times when there are elements of both sides that need to be considered.

I thought Goodes' éxplanation straight after the game was a good one and it pretty much put it to bed for me. What better time for an indigenous celebration than the indigenous round.

On the other hand if you're sitting in the stand, with no background information as to what was occurring... your team is heading for defeat, and the player kicks a goal and charges towards you waving an imaginary spear, you would probably regard it as an aggressive gesture and would respond accordingly.

Fans cannot be mind readers...
The majority wouldn't think.... "Oh that's just Adam expressing his pride in his indigenous heritage"
To them it would seem like he was saying "stick that one up you."

Had he turned around and did it as he headed back towards the centre it probably wouldn't be an issue.

I've no doubt there's an element of racisim in criticism of Goodes.
I'd like to think it's a small one.
I also think there's an element of disrespect towards him in a similar fashion to players who are seen to exploit the rules and are squealers and divers.
and then...
Some folk obviously just don't take to him as an opposition player.
(I can think of a hundred Essendon players I feel/ have felt that way about ;) :D)

I didn't have a huge problem with the dance but I can understand the "time, place and manner of execution" argument.
While it may have showed a pride and respect for his culture it would be hard for those on the receiving end to view it as respectful towards them.

My understanding is that it wasn't a traditional indigenous 'dance' in the manner of the Maori ‘’haka’’ but rather a modern compilation developed for an underage team.
As such a football audience would have little or no knowledge of its significance and take it on face value.

Look at it from a Carlton fans point of view, after giving the bloke no grief all night unlike the Hawks fans.....your team is on the rack being flogged..again... and then you have Goodes in your face waving a pretend spear at you.
Not sure many fans would be that understanding of his war dance in a ceremonial sense and would view that as Goodes giving you the finger, I appreciate its the indigenous round and AG was probably letting off some steam but he is probably lucky that our fans are the non confronting type overall and he didnt receive a real projectile coming back  his way...

Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #132 –
What a yawn this whole discussion is.

He did something towards fans that was pretty aggressive and shouldnt be tolerated, as any other act.

The fact that it was indigenous is secondary.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #133 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
What a yawn this whole discussion is.

He did something towards fans that was pretty aggressive and shouldnt be tolerated, as any other act.

The fact that it was indigenous is secondary.

the afl commission fully endorsed the actions of goodes - more than just a yawn..

Re: Round 9: Carlton vs. Sydney Post Game Pain

Reply #134 –
I must admit I've had enough of the Goodes dance thing.
It irritated me in that we couldn't stick it up him. We are not going that well and he felt he could disrespect us and get away with it. Fine. So he doesn't respect us. I'm really going to care. I just hope we can remember this and use it towards our beating Sydney next time.
If he wants to lie and say what ever he wants to say, I'm not going to worry about it.
We did not get any justice in the Greg Williams Umpire Saga. We didn't get any justice in the 1973 GF, Etc. These things hurt us and we got nothing. I am not going to worry about some bloke acting like a dill.
Live Long and Prosper!