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Re: US Presidential Election 2016

Reply #300 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Yes, this tragedy will play right into Trump's hands I'm afraid.

That's the "bizarrity" of it all.

If an Australian politician sought to make capital out of the tragedy such as this in a similar fashion to Trump they'd be finished...he's likely to benefit from it if he gets past the initial outrage at his tweet.

Re: US Presidential Election 2016

Reply #301 –
Hillary and Donald may have some opposition, and it will hurt the Trumpmeister:

Quote
As America prepares to choose between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, two of the most unpopular presidential candidates in history, voters have yearned for a third choice.

Now, in a flurry of recent national polls, Gary Johnson, the former Republican governor of New Mexico, has suddenly surged above 10 per cent.

Winning would take a miracle but, with little fanfare, Mr Johnson has emerged as a potential "spoiler" who could cost Mr Trump the White House.

Mr Johnson, 63, who made a fortune in construction, is running as the nominee of the Libertarian Party, which has secured a place on the ballot in all 50 states for the November 8 election.

"Someone told me today that against Clinton and Trump a dead person could get 10 per cent," Mr Johnson said. "But guess what? Dead person isn't on the ballot???? There's a growing realisation that it's just me."

On Friday Mitt Romney, the 2012 Republican presidential nominee, said he would consider voting Libertarian - a move that could spur other mainstream Republicans to switch.

Mr Johnson's key goal is to get into the televised debates. To do so he needs to hit 15 per cent in the polls just three points higher than the 12 per cent he scored in a Fox News poll last week.

It would be the highest profile support yet for the third party, which has traditionally been viewed as a fringe, and somewhat chaotic, group with some outlandish policies. In 2012 it secured just one per cent of the vote.

But the ticket this time has an exceptional amount of experience. Mr Johnson's running mate is Bill Weld, Mr Romney's predecessor as Republican governor of Massachusetts.

Mr Romney said he had "enormous respect" for Mr Weld and would find it easy to vote for him.

He told CNN: "I'll get to know Gary Johnson better and see if he's someone who I could end up voting for."
Asked if he felt any guilt about taking votes from Mr Trump and the Republican Party, Mr Johnson laughed. "None," he said, before going on to call Mr Trump "absolutely racist".

"I think he'd be horribly dangerous and he's sounding very fascist," added Mr Johnson. He described Mr Trump's plans to deport 11 million as uninformed, and the pledge to build a fence across the border as "just wacky".

"What he says about immigration is nothing short of incendiary," he added. "It's just human nature that we all look for a scapegoat."

He added: "For elected Republicans to say they continue to support Trump even though he's saying these things, I think it means we're seeing the demise of the Republican Party."

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/us-election/libertarian-gary-johnson-spoiler-could-stop-donald-trumps-path-to-white-house-20160612-gph8nq.html#ixzz4BRfoHQUD

It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!
 

Re: US Presidential Election 2016

Reply #302 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Yes, this tragedy will play right into Trump's hands I'm afraid.

Dear Donald,

It wasn't a terrorist!

It wasn't an immigrant!

It wasn't someone born abroad!

A wall would not have helped!

It turns out to be just another crazy born and breed American with a gun license just like 100s of other crazy Americans with guns!

Regards,
LP
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: US Presidential Election 2016

Reply #303 –
Quote from: LP – on
Dear Donald,

It wasn't a terrorist!

It wasn't an immigrant!

It wasn't someone born abroad!

A wall would not have helped!

It turns out to be just another crazy born and breed American with a gun license just like 100s of other crazy Americans with guns!

Regards,
LP

AR15's are allowed in a lot of countries which surprises me......its crazy, while its not a gun you can just spray bullets every with its
a very easy reloading gun and there are plenty of mods available to make it easier to shoot.
This gun is the most popular in the US and you can get it if you pay$8 for an ID check...an assault rifle based on the M16 is the most common gun in US homes, can you believe it??

Re: US Presidential Election 2016

Reply #304 –
The guy was a terrorist, why do we feel the need to pretend he wasn't?

2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: US Presidential Election 2016

Reply #305 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
The guy was a terrorist, why do we feel the need to pretend he wasn't?

It seems that he was but it's best to wait until all the facts are in.  His wife reckons he was emotionally and mentally disturbed, violent and abusive but not overly religious.

What about the bloke who was apprehended with weapons and explosives before he got to the Los Angeles gay pride march?  Perhaps he was just well prepared to fight back against any hate crimes or terror attacks.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: US Presidential Election 2016

Reply #306 –
Yep, 'terrorist' appears to be a simple word but its use is selective.  It means a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims and the OED defines terrorism as "the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims".  Yet there are many examples in the US where the label has not been given to those who clearly seem to have "earned" it.  Oddly enough, there don't seem to be too many white terrorists.

Dylan Roof shot a number of black people in a Charleston church.  He was a racist who had been inspired by podcasts espousing Christian Identity doctrines urging the start of a race war.  Use of violence - check.  Against civilians - check.  In pursuit of political aims - check.  Yet he wasn't called a terrorist, except by left-wingers who pointed out that he would have been labelled that way if he were a Muslim.  Instead, he was called deranged or unhinged.  The right-wing press did its best to ignore the fact it was a case of racial hatred.  Instead, it was portrayed as an attack on Christians!

Robert Dear shot 12 people in a Colorado Planned Parenthood Centre, 3 of whom died.  He said he was protecting unborn babies from being ripped apart so their baby parts could be sold.  He was clearly inspired by a fraudulent video put out by pro-life activists which purported to show PP staff discussing the sale of 'baby parts'.  This was quickly embraced by the GOP and conservatives.  The Texas Governor, a Republican, even launched an inquiry into Planned Parenthood on the basis of that tape but it not only cleared PP but led to the makers of the videos being charged, much to the chagrin of the Governor.  But was Dear labelled a terrorist?  No.  He was a deranged killer who was pushed over the edge by the murder of countless unborn babies.  Not only did his whiteness earn him immunity but also it helped that he was pushing the hobby horse of the GOP.  To call him a terrorist would tar the pro-life movement and that isn't the done thing.

Ammon Bundy led a militia which occupied the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.  They defended their occupation by arming themselves and threatening to kill any federal officers or police who might try to eject them.  Their objective was to prevent another couple of ranchers from being jailed and to force the Federal Government to cede the wilderness area to ranchers.  The government tried to avoid conflict and the occupation continued for a while before locals called on it to act.  One terrorist was killed and the others surrendered.  But they weren't labelled terrorists save by some left-wingers who wondered whether the same latitude would have been extended if the occupiers were Black or Muslim.  But Good Ol' Boys can't be terrorists can they?  They're Trump supporters after all and everyone knows that Trump is against terrorists.

Let's look at crimes committed by Muslims.  If they say they pledge allegiance to ISIS, should we automatically assume it is radical Islamic terrorism?  Clearly, the San Bernadino shootings were terrorist killings.  That couple had apparently been communicating with ISIS and had been following ISIS online.  The killings were therefore designed to serve the interests of ISIS.  Even in that case, it was necessary to discount that they were merely pursuing a vendetta against fellow workers as has happened many times in the US.  "Going postal" was coined because of the trend of postal workers killing fellow or former workmates.

In the Orlando shootings, the perpetrator said he pledged allegiance to ISIS.  But could this be a case of someone bent on going out in a blaze of glory;  how better to do that than with 50 murders and tying them to terrorism?  Let's not forget that this guy may well have been motivated by homophobia.  The GOP would prefer to treat this as a terrorist act which just happened to take place in a gay bar.  They would like to say it could just as well have targeted a church or kindergarten.  The GOP is currently going to war against the LGBT community at state level, the freedom to discriminate legislation in North Carolina being just one example.  They don't want this to be about homophobia or gun control.  Of course they want it to be neatly placed in the Islamic terrorism box.  But life isn't usually that easy to categorise.

Re: US Presidential Election 2016

Reply #308 –
The motivation of the Orlando mass murderer is less clear with the revelation that he was a patron of the club and apparently homosexual. 
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: US Presidential Election 2016

Reply #309 –
Self-loathing?  Remember, the US pioneered 'gay conversion' therapy which was based on the belief that a lot of willpower, some behavioural therapy and a lot of praying for divine intervention could straighten gays out.  Failure was predictable and predisposed the patients to suicidality.  Psychologists and Psychiatrists are now prohibited from engaging in those therapies.

Re: US Presidential Election 2016

Reply #310 –
How does one shooter kill 50 odd and wound a further 50 in a confined space without getting taken down?

Stories say that people were shot multiple times.....

afaiaw, the magazine of the main weapon used holds 30 rounds.

Do the maths.

Why did the Feds take 3 hours to 'storm' the building?the main

Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: US Presidential Election 2016

Reply #311 –
One witness who ran out of the building yelled at the police that they needed to go in but they didn't.  The gunman was in there for some 3 hours. I agree, it's really weird.

The Martin Place siege should have ended with a sniper's bullet.  The snipers had opportunities but weren't allowed to take the shot.  But there hadn't been shooting until very late in the piece, unlike in Orlando.

Re: US Presidential Election 2016

Reply #312 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
How does one shooter kill 50 odd and wound a further 50 in a confined space without getting taken down?

Stories say that people were shot multiple times.....

afaiaw, the magazine of the main weapon used holds 30 rounds.

Do the maths.

Why did the Feds take 3 hours to 'storm' the building?the main

The reason given was that they thought he was wearing an explosive device. Make of that what you will but AFAIC things are rarely just what they seem on the surface.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: US Presidential Election 2016

Reply #313 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
How does one shooter kill 50 odd and wound a further 50 in a confined space without getting taken down?

Stories say that people were shot multiple times.....

afaiaw, the magazine of the main weapon used holds 30 rounds.

Do the maths.

Why did the Feds take 3 hours to 'storm' the building?the main

Magazines for the AR-15 hold between 5 and 100 rounds but 20 and 30 round magazines are standard.  Military users of the similar M-16 often tape three magazines together giving rapid access to up to 90 rounds.  Changing magazines takes seconds so magazine capacity is not a limiting factor.

The AR-15 is semi-automatic so the rate of fire is dependant on how fast the shooter can pull the trigger (and change magazines).  I once fired 60 rounds from a semi-automatic rifle in just over a minute (two magazine changes) so shooting around 100 people in a confined area in 5-10 minutes would be relatively easy - if you are cold-blooded enough to carry out such an atrocity.

I understand that the delay in entering the building was due to fears that the gunman had explosives.  I'm not sure how far the armoured vehicle had to travel but that may have been a factor too.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: US Presidential Election 2016

Reply #314 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Magazines for the AR-15 hold between 5 and 100 rounds but 20 and 30 round magazines are standard.  Military users of the similar M-16 often tape three magazines together giving rapid access to up to 90 rounds.  Changing magazines takes seconds so magazine capacity is not a limiting factor.

The AR-15 is semi-automatic so the rate of fire is dependant on how fast the shooter can pull the trigger (and change magazines).  I once fired 60 rounds from a semi-automatic rifle in just over a minute (two magazine changes) so shooting around 100 people in a confined area in 5-10 minutes would be relatively easy - if you are cold-blooded enough to carry out such an atrocity.

I understand that the delay in entering the building was due to fears that the gunman had explosives.  I'm not sure how far the armoured vehicle had to travel but that may have been a factor too.

I agree with all those points.

Years ago prior to the bans on semi-automatic weapons I owned a Ruger Mini 14 which was a similar category of weapon we used for feral pig eradication. Back then in South Australia you could buy a circular clip version with a 100 capacity that you could empty as fast as you could pull the trigger. There was no reason or need to attempt an automatic modification, I think the maximum rate was about 3 rounds per second unmodified. A standard 30 shot clip could be taped back to back just like you see in the movies and changed a 2 or 3 seconds.

The "modification" of these weapons to fully automatic is overstated by the media, it has nothing to do with the events and in automatic form they are harder to control than in semi-automatic form. Regardless they should not be available to the general public in any format, they are weapons of war not pieces of sporting equipment.

BTW., listening to the audio being broadcast indicates the rifle used was operating as a semi-automatic.

Finally, I have no idea why someone would complain about the slow response times. Those officials have no idea with what they are dealing with at the time, all that relevant information comes after the fact. Also they are on a hiding to nothing, if they shoot a nutter who has a vest loaded with explosives they will be criticized as much if not even more than if they delay and people die by other means. Maybe there would have been 300 dead in such a circumstance. They are professionals, the media should but out and let them do their job!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"