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Topic: Trumpled (Alternative Leading) (Read 1909566 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4695 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I think if we focus on the main topic of this thread, which is essentially Trump and America post 2016, we need to be careful about equivocating and assuming some kind of both sides equivalence. The data make it pretty clear that the Trump Republicans are much worse rhetorically and practically than the Democrats.

There seems to be a level of camaraderie between former presidents, but it doesn’t extend to Taco.  That was evident at Jimmy Carter’s funeral where Biden, Bush, Obama and Clinton exchanged pleasantries but avoided Taco.  I’m not sure whether that’s due to an understandable genuine dislike of the man, an unwillingness to be associated with his politics, or a combination.

Previous Republican presidents have generally conducted themselves with dignity and in a statesmanlike manner.  Political assassinations still occurred, but not in the context of aggressive, hate-filled speech that emanates from the White House now.  The Utah governor’s firm pushback against the MAGA calls for retribution is reminiscent of the pre-MAGA GOP.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4696 –
Statesmanlike, haven’t seen that for a while.
Similarly, Respect…
Let’s go BIG !

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4697 –
Quote from: Lods – on
I'm pretty sure most folks with a Democratic leaning would agree with that assessment Paul.
Just as most people with a Republican leaning would think the opposite.
And there lies the problem
Both sides are one-eyed and blinded by their own perceptions to some of the things that are actually being said by their 'team'.

It's been confrontational since Trump's first term.
Few on any side have put any effort at all into toning down some of the rhetoric.
They say the words, but in the next sentence they pass a judgement that is likely to incite a negative response.


Sorry lods, but I disagree. I can tell you quite categorically that I am not in any way a supporter of the Democrats.

If you interrogate the data on its own terms, there is no equivalence in terms of certain behaviors. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but IMO :

- there is no Democrat / left equivalent to Trump, a man who consistently insults minorities and opponents, lies like he breathes, calls for political violence against groups and individuals he doesn't like etc

- there are no Democrat / left equivalent to Steve Bannon, Stephen Miller, Hegseth and host of others, who pretty much parrot the same vulgar and violent rhetoric as their leader

- there are no Democrat / left equivalent to the Jan 6 insurrectionists and groups like the Proud Boys, MAGA movement etc. IMO, groups like Antifa do not count as an equivalent, since they are minor players and do not have the reach, scope and access to power that the right wing groups do.

- there are few if any Democrat / left equivalents to the social media influencers like Kirk and many other who also frequently engage in rhetoric that fuels hatred and violence.

The oppressor / aggressor / agitator pretty much always sets the agenda. Republicans have been targeting and abusing Democrats for years. The fact that Democrats eventually retaliate in their characteristically gormless way does not IMO imply equivalence. 

I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4698 –
You may not be a Democratic supporter, in fact you would probably be well to the left of most Democratic supporters.

What I'm saying Paul, is that because of personal views and bias we sometimes exaggerate the "demon' qualities of those on the other side while at the same time overlooking the faults of those we have an affinity for.

We can look at the same individual, and their behaviour, and judge them quite differently depending on whether we agree with them or not on issues
While I agree that a lot of the people you mention are not great people, especially the fearless leader, there would be moderate conservatives, even middle of the road voters who don't see them in the same light as you do.
That's demonstrated by election results.
Not all the people who voted for Trump are raving right wingers.
He won over a fair bit of the middle ground where elections are decided.
I suspect the polls have probably turned against him in recent times, so it will be interesting to see the effect of Kirks assassination.



Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4699 –
I've been grappling with Kirk's shooting over the last bit.  It is abhorrent that anyone thinks it is OK to kill someone like that - I don't think many disagree on that.

I have seen a few You-tube videos of Kirk debating uni students.  They are on Kirk's channel, so (cynically) probably edited, but show Kirk respectably listening to the opposite point of view, while the uni students interupt and shout more.  While I think he probably was respectful, he was never there to really understand an opposite point of view or sympathise with it - he was there to try to change their mind - shown by his views on the 'big' topics - guns, abortion, sexuality.

Personally I am about 180 degrees from his views that I have heard.  But how did this come to this sort of violence, which is not new, but the scale is relatively recent?

US Republican v Democrat arguments are much stronger and heated than our politics.  It really matters in a lot of circles who you vote for.  It matters who can convince the most to vote.  The lack of wanting to be in the middle, making the country better for everyone (yes, very hard to do, but a worthwhile goal) means that the rhetoric and vitriol increases.  There is a lot that comes from Trump, however, I recall Biden made derogatory remarks about Republican voters in the last election.  Trump has zero interest in making the US a better place - shown by his appointments and pulling apart of many institutions and departments, total disrespect of the political protections that have traditionally been in place.  It is ramped up compared to previous administrations (they all make political appointments that are questionable).

This allows division to fester and grow, which brings the extremes more into play as they are emboldened.  It breaks society down.  I struggle to see how this can be brought back.

The odd thing personally for me, is that I haven't taken any notice about US politics except when Trump has been president or running for it.  Partly through coverage, but mainly there was more statemanship (as someone mentioned) but for the most part, there wasn't anything too radical and the political systems saw the process/laws through. It was a lot more stable and not nearly as many were threatened by 'politics' or decisions made and implemented.  US Politics was just news, and not really affecting our day to day life.  (There are obviously things that did for many - including WMD - but for me, what the US did was pretty irrelevant to my life).

I hope that there is a strong middle ground candidate that will be able to mend bridges, however, there doesn't appear to be.



 

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4700 –
Perhaps I went too early with my praise of Utah Governor Spencer Cox.

What on earth was he thinking when he said, "For the last 33 hours, I had been praying that this person was from another country. That he was not one of us. But it was one of us."

Was he referring to a person like FBI Director Kash Patel, who was standing behind Cox and looking decidedly uncomfortable as Cox delivered his monologue. Of course, the FBI hasn't covered itself in glory and that may have been the cause of Patel's unease.

Robinson is the archetypal school shooter and I would have thought that Cox's thought processes would have quickly led him to the conclusion that the shooter was "one of us."
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: Trumpled (Alternative Leading)

Reply #4701 –
They're not even bothering to hide it. Just blatantly declaring their xenophobia. It's been like that for a while.