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Negotiate or Manipulate

Mark Latham's comments really sparked off some debate around our office today, it was quite interesting to listen to the results. Not defending Latham as he's a knob, but it has prompted a debate.

Note these are general observations specific to certain debates and not generalisations that can be broadly applied.

While there was a general consensus damning domestic violence, some glaring differences appeared between the genders on either sides of the debates about why and how. Some of the best points came from individuals who had been through separations, they seemed to center around manipulation versus negotiation.

Divorced men stated they felt helpless in a relationship, like their partner wasn't listening, all the odds were stacked in the females favor from a legal and social perspective, and that they were pawns being manipulated in a game that had a predetermined result. One guy said his former partner knew the answers to the questions, the opinions of friends and family, well before he even knew there was a problem.

Some females painted themselves as the oppressed victims of failed negotiations. They said they had wanted a good outcome but asserted they couldn't find a solution and the discussion(negotiation) ended badly.

In the end I realised I was possibly hearing arguments from different perspectives of the very same debate. What the females described as a negotiation the males described as manipulation.

What was very disturbing was a minority from both genders that can be best described as radical. There was clearly a small percentage that politicised the debate and painted all males as being abusive and all females as scheming.

Some men clearly admit to thinking of females in a possessive sense, some on religious grounds, they were a minority but they are deliberately displayed as being the norm by certain political factions.

Some women believe many victims of domestic violence contribute to it. They think some women believe men are easily manipulated and that they actively try put this into practice, more often than not it ends very badly.

I don't understand how this debate can proceed to a solution when it's not inclusive, certain parties are deliberately trying to find a solution that doesn't include the other. It's doomed to fail, the sides of the debate want the how but will not concede to a why, and they do not wish to treat each other as equals!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Negotiate or Manipulate

Reply #1 –
At the every starting point there has to be an acceptance that violence is not an acceptable solution whatever the circumstances or however intolerable someone may feel they are being treated.

Re: Negotiate or Manipulate

Reply #2 –
Unfortunately we have a society where violence all too often rears its ugly head and domestic violence is one aspect or manifestation of this, with devastating results in some cases.

I feel that it is unfortunate that gender aspects are gaining most of the reporting and fueling a sort of gender war, where there may be many more underlying causes. The real enemy is violence IMO, one person on another and this includes all aspects of abuse bullying and harassment. Focusing on it as a gender issue could be detracting from the efforts to rid society of this curse as it does no doubt give platform to some of the more extreme feminine agendas as well purely anti violence ones.

Knob that he is, Latham could have a point and his arguments should not be totally ignored.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Negotiate or Manipulate

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Lods – on
At the every starting point there has to be an acceptance that violence is not an acceptable solution whatever the circumstances or however intolerable someone may feel they are being treated.

Yes absolutely, and this is regardless of whether the violence is male/female, male/male or female/female.

But this already seems to be the case and it's enshrined in law, yet the domestic violence debate isn't progressing as expected.

Of course what is it that is being debated as domestic violence, is it inclusive of mental abuse? I could elaborate even further and divide this into an ageist perspective as there was a clear demarcation between what older contributors thought versus the youth.

But it raises a question, if the definition of domestic violence is to be so broad does manipulation fall within the realm of abuse?

That would further fractionate the debate, and it seems to me unification not division is the key, but the current public debate from both sides seems to be driving a wedge.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Negotiate or Manipulate

Reply #4 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Unfortunately we have a society where violence all too often rears its ugly head and domestic violence is one aspect or manifestation of this, with devastating results in some cases.

I feel that it is unfortunate that gender aspects are gaining most of the reporting and fueling a sort of gender war, where there may be many more underlying causes. The real enemy is violence IMO, one person on another and this includes all aspects of abuse bullying and harassment. Focusing on it as a gender issue could be detracting from the efforts to rid society of this curse as it does no doubt give platform to some of the more extreme feminine agendas as well purely anti violence ones.

Knob that he is, Latham could have a point and his arguments should not be totally ignored.

I think you're correct Cookie, as I've concluded we need a unified approach not a divisive approach. Marginalising someone with a Latham like perspective will only ensure the community remains divided. They need to bring those who think like him into the debate.

A lot of the publicly loud participants in this debate, those making political gains from it, need to study up on the Milgram Experiment and how it went wrong. It showed how wrong people could be, in this case the legal profession, when cherry picking the evidence. Milgram performed dozens of psychological experiments, and the legal profession chose the only study that supported it's desired outcome.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Negotiate or Manipulate

Reply #5 –
Quote from: LP – on
Of course what is it that is being debated as domestic violence, is it inclusive of mental abuse? I could elaborate even further and divide this into an ageist perspective as there was a clear demarcation between what older contributors thought versus the youth.

Could you give us a general indication about the difference.

My Father's generation and the Grandfathers would have been quite contemptuous of any man who hit a woman....but of course domestic abuse was still around...just a bit more hidden.

Re: Negotiate or Manipulate

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Could you give us a general indication about the difference.

My Father's generation and the Grandfathers would have been quite contemptuous of any man who hit a woman....but of course domestic abuse was still around...just a bit more hidden.

Sorry Lods, some older contributors did not consider mental or verbal abuse as domestic violence at all, but they are the product of a tougher time and perhaps are more resilient given their age and life experience. The younger people in the discussion consider all physical, verbal, social and fiscal dominance as "domestic violence" across the board.

I think that mental and verbal abuse is abuse, but I do not label it as violence as it is portrayed in the media. However I understand abuse can lead to violence, as can all forms of oppression.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"