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East West Tunnel

I hope Dan Andrews is caught up in this traffic.
Problem is it would make no difference to him.

What an utter waste of public funds. Ie our money.

Farking grub

Re: East West Tunnel

Reply #1 –
Quote from: JonHenry – on
I hope Dan Andrews is caught up in this traffic.
Problem is it would make no difference to him.

What an utter waste of public funds. Ie our money.

Farking grub

Took me over 90 minutes to get home today (From Kew)....and i live in the north and was nowhere near the west gate and its holdups.

East west tunnel would work, but its a bandaid on a potentially lethal cut.

They need to heavily invest in PT and get all these cars off the road, then there will be less traffic and less traffic accidents!
 

Re: East West Tunnel

Reply #2 –
Sure we need more/better public transport but we also need the EW Link to handle the commercial road traffic, never mind private cars.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: East West Tunnel

Reply #3 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Took me over 90 minutes to get home today (From Kew)....and i live in the north and was nowhere near the west gate and its holdups.

East west tunnel would work, but its a bandaid on a potentially lethal cut.

They need to heavily invest in PT and get all these cars off the road, then there will be less traffic and less traffic accidents!

Heavily invest?
We live in one of the biggest cities in the world area wise.
We have a modest population per sq km.
Who gets the public transport?
You cannot provide it to everyone without spending our grand kids pensions.

Back to reality, we wasted $1b on nothing.

Re: East West Tunnel

Reply #4 –
Quote from: JonHenry – on
Heavily invest?
We live in one of the biggest cities in the world area wise.
We have a modest population per sq km.
Who gets the public transport?
You cannot provide it to everyone without spending our grand kids pensions.

Back to reality, we wasted $1b on nothing.


With the population growing by the day, the traffic problem is going to get worse.

EW link is a Finger in the dyke. How long will it hold? Not long enough.

You worried about your grandkids? Perhaps make sure there is a world for them to actually grow up in.
Cars are far from good for the environment. PT flogs it in terms of environmental benefits.

WHere to put the rail? Everywhere!

Rail to Tullamarine is a good start.
More rail around the city which they are doing.
Already adding some rail out my way.
Doncaster area should be next.

Adding a new line/extension takes 100's of cars of the roads every day.

Re: East West Tunnel

Reply #5 –
Wow lucky for me I live 1 minute from work! :P

Re the government blowing our funds, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Let's look at 5 star junkets, free flights for family etc at top dollar prices. Brumby the fool set the state back years and retired on a 2.3 million super fund with freebies for life. That's what is wrong with this country. The people in charge.
Ignorance is bliss.

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS!

Re: East West Tunnel

Reply #6 –
Quote from: kruddler – on

With the population growing by the day, the traffic problem is going to get worse.

EW link is a Finger in the dyke. How long will it hold? Not long enough.

You worried about your grandkids? Perhaps make sure there is a world for them to actually grow up in.
Cars are far from good for the environment. PT flogs it in terms of environmental benefits.

WHere to put the rail? Everywhere!

Rail to Tullamarine is a good start.
More rail around the city which they are doing.
Already adding some rail out my way.
Doncaster area should be next.

Adding a new line/extension takes 100's of cars of the roads every day.

As I said, we have to deal with reality.
You cannot just add train lines to a system that cannot handle it.
I agree we need PT but it will never be the entire solution in a city this vast.

Oh and throwing away a billion dollars cannot be justified no matter how you swing it.

That tunnel should have been built and so should the western link connecting the ports to the western ring road.
The current plan to link it to the West Gate is a farce again.

Re: East West Tunnel

Reply #7 –
Not trying to justify wasting a billion dollars, but as carrots said, its far from unusual.

Build the link, sure, but in 10 years time it'll be just like it is now. Bandaid solution.

Rail needs a rethink to handle the extra, sure, but it can be done

Re: East West Tunnel

Reply #8 –
One of the problems with our transport infrastructure is that it's not integrated.

A rail line should have been built down the middle of the Eastern Freeway and another should have gone in on  the Tullamarine.  It's a scandal that we don't have a train servicing Melbourne Airport'

Of course, the radial nature of our rail system needs to be addressed with suburban interchanges getting people to their destinations without going through the CBD.  Getting heavy vehicles off the road wouldn't go astray but it all costs money and Aussie politicians are terrified of raising taxes, or even not reducing current taxes.

Melbourne is not the only city to suffer traffic chaos when something goes wrong.  I was heading north out of Paris a couple of years ago and there was a truck fire on the inbound lane.  The traffic was banked up for 21kms and there were hundreds of vehicles still heading towards the jam.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: East West Tunnel

Reply #9 –
Quote from: DJC – on
One of the problems with our transport infrastructure is that it's not integrated.

A rail line should have been built down the middle of the Eastern Freeway and another should have gone in on  the Tullamarine.  It's a scandal that we don't have a train servicing Melbourne Airport'

Of course, the radial nature of our rail system needs to be addressed with suburban interchanges getting people to their destinations without going through the CBD.  Getting heavy vehicles off the road wouldn't go astray but it all costs money and Aussie politicians are terrified of raising taxes, or even not reducing current taxes.

Melbourne is not the only city to suffer traffic chaos when something goes wrong.  I was heading north out of Paris a couple of years ago and there was a truck fire on the inbound lane.  The traffic was banked up for 21kms and there were hundreds of vehicles still heading towards the jam.
Lindsay Fox suggested years ago that the Ports should be moved from Port Melb out to Western Port Bay to stop the trucks having to go through or near the city to get to them as they do now. Seems logical but do the imbeciles listen? You'd reckon a bloke who has become a Billionaire from the transport game would know a thing or two about transport.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: East West Tunnel

Reply #10 –
Quote from: DJC – on
One of the problems with our transport infrastructure is that it's not integrated.

A rail line should have been built down the middle of the Eastern Freeway and another should have gone in on  the Tullamarine.  It's a scandal that we don't have a train servicing Melbourne Airport'

Of course, the radial nature of our rail system needs to be addressed with suburban interchanges getting people to their destinations without going through the CBD.  Getting heavy vehicles off the road wouldn't go astray but it all costs money and Aussie politicians are terrified of raising taxes, or even not reducing current taxes.

Melbourne is not the only city to suffer traffic chaos when something goes wrong.  I was heading north out of Paris a couple of years ago and there was a truck fire on the inbound lane.  The traffic was banked up for 21kms and there were hundreds of vehicles still heading towards the jam.

You're right many other cities experience traffic issues but I don't know of any that piss away $1billion.
Most of the traffic that goes through royal park could have gone underground.
Just simply wasteful and arrogant.
Obviously from people who find it very easy to spend someone else's money

Re: East West Tunnel

Reply #11 –
Doesn't come close to the Monash carpark.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: East West Tunnel

Reply #12 –
Quote from: JonHenry – on
Heavily invest?
We live in one of the biggest cities in the world area wise.
We have a modest population per sq km.
Who gets the public transport?
You cannot provide it to everyone without spending our grand kids pensions.

Back to reality, we wasted $1b on nothing.
Melbourne has never been in a position to make the most of public transport. As a city it has always had a spread out population to deal with. Even in its infancy, the people who came to Melbourne like room and moved to where it was as quickly as they could. Granted that they did grow where the public transport was (very good planning 130 years ago - wonder what happened since?), but they did move out as quickly as they could. Melbourne has always had a very low population density.
The problem with putting public transport in now, as the population is becoming somewhat more concentrated, is that it has NOT be planned for. The spaces for the it don't exist. Much of the ground once covered by train tracks was long ago sold and built on. Remember, there was a train track only 100 m North of Princes Park for a long time: some of that still remains today, but not much.
Hence the problem the Andrews' Government has at the moment with their effort to replace level crossings. There is no place to go but up or down, and down is expensive.
To be honest, building underground is the way to go. Just have a look at London's tube system, which is a really good transport system. But we don't yet have the population density to make this viable and we don't have the money to do it. Nor are we likely to any time soon.
There are simply some things that governments cannot do (although very few have ever thought of admitting it).

The other good thing about the Tube in London is that it is not relatively expensive. The system can make a profit while still not breaking the bank. That is not the case here. Companies do not see the way to make a profit and fares are not cheap. The fare system is illogical and confusing. If they do not invest, then it is harder to make public transport work at all.

The other thing we really lack is long term planning. Back in Melbourne's infancy there was money (from Gold) and some reasonable planning (at least in the Eastern Suburbs). The idea then was to design a system that allowed traffic to quickly and efficiently. That model died some time ago. Governments rarely look past the next election - after all, if they look further ahead, then it is likely that the other mob gets the credit for it coming to fruition on their watch.
For example, Labour didn't like freeways. They twice sold the land that was to join the 2 sections of what is now the Monash Freeway. Twice the Libs, who like freeways, had to buy it back, at great cost.

For the East West Link to work as it should, the land the Libs acquired was necessary. That that they may not get access to it, then the East West Link will forever have major issues, even if the rest gets built at all.

The Ring road is another case of very poor design. It has built in bottlenecks that become very obvious most afternoons. More ring roads should have been planned into Melbourne after WWII. But they were not, so we have about half a ring that suffers each day.
London's Ring road is much better designed that ours, and it still has major issues. It simply wasn't designed to handle the number of cars that use it. Ours was never adequate and wasn't on the first day it was opened.

To conclude, I can't see transport in Melbourne getting any better. It needs money that can't and won't be spent. It needs good design and long term planning, neither of which are likely. It needs the sort of major overhaul that Paris experienced in the 2nd Empire, turning Paris was the most disgusting city in Europe into one that still impresses. Baron Hausmann got a free hand and plenty of money from Napoleon III. Parisians hated it until they saw how good it was. We have no Napoleon III, no Baron Hausmann and no resources. We have 'residents' groups' that fight any change just about anywhere. We have a distinct lack of planning and a total hatred of the straight line in roads. That just doesn't look good as more people are coming here every day.
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: East West Tunnel

Reply #13 –
Quote from: crashlander – on
We have 'residents' groups' that fight any change just about anywhere. We have a distinct lack of planning and a total hatred of the straight line in roads. That just doesn't look good as more people are coming here every day.
Top post Crash. And just on the last point, not only do we have groups that fight any change, we go and make a critical piece of infrastructure, that the everyone can benefit from, an election issue. How imbecilic was that? What does which political party you support have to do with a bit of "kit" EVERYONE can benefit from? It makes no sense to me.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: East West Tunnel

Reply #14 –
Quote from: DJC – on
One of the problems with our transport infrastructure is that it's not integrated.
Very true. And very clear when you trying to get away from the footy after a game.

Quote from: DJC – on
A rail line should have been built down the middle of the Eastern Freeway and another should have gone in on  the Tullamarine.  It's a scandal that we don't have a train servicing Melbourne Airport'
I am not sure a train line down the middle of the freeway is a good idea, but to have no train line going directly from the airport to the city is insane.

Quote from: DJC – on
Of course, the radial nature of our rail system needs to be addressed with suburban interchanges getting people to their destinations without going through the CBD.  Getting heavy vehicles off the road wouldn't go astray but it all costs money and Aussie politicians are terrified of raising taxes, or even not reducing current taxes.
The radial system is fine, as long as there are some rings to go around the outside. There never has been. That rail cannot compete with road, even in the middle of the city, is a sever design deficiency.

Quote from: DJC – on
Melbourne is not the only city to suffer traffic chaos when something goes wrong.  I was heading north out of Paris a couple of years ago and there was a truck fire on the inbound lane.  The traffic was banked up for 21kms and there were hundreds of vehicles still heading towards the jam.
Paris worked very well for a long while, with its wider streets and boulevards and reasonable public transport system. But it was not designed for the number of people it has now. Their freeway system, with toll booths, is a nightmare. The population simply expanded far quicker than the ideas of how to deal with it. And there is no Napoleon III to force the people of Paris to do what is necessary.

One of the dubious advantages of losing a really big war is the ability to redesign your cities from the rubble. Germany experienced that. They also have a LOT of cities instead of a lot of megalopolises. Only Berlin (which didn't have a choice) and München have grown to the point where their infrastructure is badly stressed. The other cities are small enough and concentrated enough for a decent public transport system and a lot of good road design to make them work.

Anyone for nuking Melbourne and Sydney back to the stone age?
Live Long and Prosper!