Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

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Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #135 – April 10, 2016, 11:27:48 am

Quote from: PaulP – on April 10, 2016, 11:08:36 am

I agree in principle with your post, but the bit in bold is crucial - it is, as you say, far too early make any judgments, but what amount of time is the right time to start making calls ?

I've changed my mind completely on this....
If we're going to entrust Bolton the rebuild /reset let him start from scratch.

I used to think it was important to retain players like Gibbs and Murphy to help guide the younger players.
The problem is that these were blokes who(apart from the Judd influence) were given little guidance about just what it takes to make a champion, professional footballer, due to the mediocrity of the playing group around them
Their own "education" was limited as a result.

In Cripps and Weitering it looks like we may a couple of natural leaders (at least by example.)

I think we'd lose little by moving most players who've been at the club longer than Cripps on.
They've been part of a pretty tumultuous period that we need a clear break from.
Some like Murphy and Gibbs will still have fair currency and provide us with more as trades than they do if we retain them.

We start with a fresh group, untarnished by the turmoil of our recent past, that Bolton can develop.

Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #136 – April 10, 2016, 11:35:15 am

Quote from: Lods – on April 10, 2016, 11:27:48 am

I've changed my mind completely on this....
If we're going to entrust Bolton the rebuild /reset let him start from scratch.

I used to think it was important to retain players like Gibbs and Murphy to help guide the younger players.
The problem is that these were blokes who(apart from the Judd influence) were given little guidance about just what it takes to make a champion professional footballer due to the mediocrity of the playing group around them so their own "education" was limited as a result

In Cripps and Weitering it looks like we may a couple of natural leaders (at least by example.)

I think we'd lose little by moving most players who've been at the club longer than Cripps on.
They've been part of a pretty tumultuous period that we need a clear break from.
Some like Murphy and Gibbs will still have fair currency and provide us with more as trades than they do if we retain them.

We start with a fresh group, untarnished by the turmoil of our recent past, that Bolton can develop.

agree with this - we are a bottom 4 side and we will win our 5th spoon in 14 years

apart from the Board and any remaining old admin existing under pratt, smorgon and sticks (which should all be wiped away) we should trade all our last remaining assets in murphy gibbs kruez simmo for draft picks and go young and bottom right out like st kilda did in early 2000. we run the risk of putting too much load on the young players - but from 3 games i have more confidence in cripps and no 23 as leaders than the frustrating introverts of jamo murph and gibbs

btw I dont understand why docherty gets raved about

the president must speak to daisy and demand his retirement - come to a financial arrangement to reduce our cap pressure and get him out of the joint

Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #137 – April 10, 2016, 11:35:59 am

So then, is it possible to quantify the "results" that you insist on seeing before you "believe" ? What are the signs that we're looking for and what is the time limit in which we need to see these "signs" ? Do we assume that this season is a wipe out in terms of W/L ? Are we looking for a minimum number of wins ? Honorable losses ? 4 q efforts ? Development of the young players etc. ?

What will be give us the comfort of knowing we're in the right hands, on the right path ?

Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #138 – April 10, 2016, 11:37:21 am

Quote from: Lods – on April 10, 2016, 11:27:48 am

I've changed my mind completely on this....
If we're going to entrust Bolton the rebuild /reset let him start from scratch.

I used to think it was important to retain players like Gibbs and Murphy to help guide the younger players.
The problem is that these were blokes who(apart from the Judd influence) were given little guidance about just what it takes to make a champion professional footballer due to the mediocrity of the playing group around them so their own "education" was limited as a result

In Cripps and Weitering it looks like we may a couple of natural leaders (at least by example.)

I think we'd lose little by moving most players who've been at the club longer than Cripps on.
They've been part of a pretty tumultuous period that we need a clear break from.
Some like Murphy and Gibbs will still have fair currency and provide us with more as trades than they do if we retain them.

We start with a fresh group, untarnished by the turmoil of our recent past, that Bolton can develop.

Spot on lods, the above two did not develop properly, I think they are just as much to blame they had blokes like Carrazzo, Simpson and Scotland showing them how it's done. How do they say.....you can lead a horse to water?

As they are now, they will ruin the development of the youngsters and teach them that you can pick and choose when you go. Let's ditch them and pronto.

Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #139 – April 10, 2016, 11:38:48 am

Quote from: PaulP – on April 10, 2016, 11:35:59 am

So then, is it possible to quantify the "results" that you insist on seeing before you "believe" ? What are the signs that we're looking for and what is the time limit in which we need to see these "signs" ? Do we assume that this season is a wipe out in terms of W/L ? Are we looking for a minimum number of wins ? Honorable losses ? 4 q efforts ? Development of the young players etc. ?

What will be give us the comfort of knowing we're in the right hands, on the right path ?

We already have seen some signs.....our first year players look to be performing alright so far and our game style is far more attractive when executed correctly.

Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #140 – April 10, 2016, 11:39:55 am

Quote from: MosquitoFleet – on April 10, 2016, 11:35:15 am

btw I dont understand why docherty gets raved about

I doubt you would understand most things.

Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #141 – April 10, 2016, 11:43:24 am

Quote from: Lods – on April 10, 2016, 11:27:48 am

I've changed my mind completely on this....
If we're going to entrust Bolton the rebuild /reset let him start from scratch.

I used to think it was important to retain players like Gibbs and Murphy to help guide the younger players.
The problem is that these were blokes who(apart from the Judd influence) were given little guidance about just what it takes to make a champion, professional footballer, due to the mediocrity of the playing group around them
Their own "education" was limited as a result.

In Cripps and Weitering it looks like we may a couple of natural leaders (at least by example.)

I think we'd lose little by moving most players who've been at the club longer than Cripps on.
They've been part of a pretty tumultuous period that we need a clear break from.
Some like Murphy and Gibbs will still have fair currency and provide us with more as trades than they do if we retain them.

We start with a fresh group, untarnished by the turmoil of our recent past, that Bolton can develop.

Yep starting to see that as well.

The Bulldogs were stronger by losing Cooney and Griffen, but kept the old heads in Murphy and Boyd who were around for the Bulldogs first tilt.

Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #142 – April 10, 2016, 11:44:00 am

Quote from: Gointocarlton – on April 10, 2016, 11:39:55 am

I doubt you would understand most things.

thanks for reading my post -

I assume that you think its rosey, we can smell what the blues are cooking, we are coming and we are all bound by blue

Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #143 – April 10, 2016, 11:50:02 am

So, my two cents worth;
I'm with the crew who point out it's game 3 in a rebuilding year so let's take a breath. Yes our skills are still shizen at times but I definitely see an improvement in the way we're TRYING to play. We just don't have enough soldiers right now (still should have beaten $hitmond)
The players
Weitering BOG closely followed by E Curnow and maybe the Doc?
Gibbs, Murphy, Kreuzer Thomas and Simpson (poor games and no impact). On K-man I think I agree with those that suggest he should just ruck on his own.
Phillips tries but because he also has no impact and my previous point re Kreuzer means give him a rest.
Thought BOTH the Irish guys did OK. Tuohy gets plenty of whacks for some reason on this site but at least he can influence positively on occasions.
Cripps good considering he was struggling with some sort of injury.
C Curnow and Levi I'm happy for them to be persisted with.
Kerridge and BB started OK but got worse as the game went on?
Jammo and Rowe, real bad. Jammo has runs on the board but we can't afford to carry the two of them so for me Rowe HAS TO GO. Bring in anyone else with two legs.
Dylan did a couple of nice things and tries his guts out but just not up to it at the moment.
Whiley, why was he selected??? Gives us nothing. Go back.
Nick Graham a bit like Dylan but a smidge better, just.
Wright got a bit of it but went unnoticed. Another with a lack of influence. He is no Eddie.
Heaven help us against the doggies next week.

Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #144 – April 10, 2016, 12:37:17 pm

Quote from: PaulP – on April 10, 2016, 11:35:59 am

So then, is it possible to quantify the "results" that you insist on seeing before you "believe" ? What are the signs that we're looking for and what is the time limit in which we need to see these "signs" ? Do we assume that this season is a wipe out in terms of W/L ? Are we looking for a minimum number of wins ? Honorable losses ? 4 q efforts ? Development of the young players etc. ?

What will be give us the comfort of knowing we're in the right hands, on the right path ?

Short answer....we'll have a fair idea by the end of the year.
If we're playing good competitive football
If we're winning a few games.
If we can say a number of players had much better years than last year and the team is coming together nicely as a unit then we're probably on the right track.

You have to look at the season as a whole to make a fair judgement...that doesn't mean you cant be on the lookout for the odd "fungus" amongst the positive green shoots
What you would hope to see is a gradual improvement as the season progresses.
That may still happen....but there are a couple of warning signs.

The lack of improvement, in fact a regression, from established Carlton players.
Is everyone buying what Bolton is selling?
The lack of scoring power.

Here's where you get your standard....if these things can be turned around then the results in terms of scores/wins should come.
.
The attitude that "Everything will be alright because things are different this time" is nothing more than a guess.
If you go back through threads over the years you see it time and again.
It's great to have faith and hopefully we'll look back at this period in the latter part of the season and wonder why we were worried.

But there's nothing worse than false hope...the "green shoots" that turn brown after a hard season.
There's nothing more soul destroying than things going "pear-shaped" when we've been told we're going about it the right way this time.

I'm still very positive about Bolton but I'm now of the opinion that his job will be a lot harder if we retain players who have been part of such a damaged culture...good players though they may be.

Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #145 – April 10, 2016, 12:48:07 pm

Lods they are good players, but are they the right players is the question we need to ask.

Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #146 – April 10, 2016, 12:52:41 pm

The biggest problem BB has to overcome IMO is that he is selling a reset or rebuild or whatever you want to call it and that has been underlined and emphasised by The Judge and Trigg repeatedly - no shortcuts!

That's great for the younger and newer players who can see a possible "land of opportunity". For the older and more established guys all it means is uncertainty and doubt as to whether or not they will be a part of the new world, and what their roles might be in it, if indeed they will have one. Only the very strongest of them mentally are likely to fully embrace that and flourish IMO. It is no doubt a painful transition for the club.

Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #147 – April 10, 2016, 01:02:55 pm

Quote from: rocky – on April 10, 2016, 11:50:02 am

Thought BOTH the Irish guys did OK. Tuohy gets plenty of whacks for some reason on this site but at least he can influence positively on occasions.

Im abit of a 2E basher, my only criticism is that he should be taken out of defence and played up the ground. He could be a wing-HF weapon potentially. I think his defensive skills have not developed to a level that warrants leaving him there. He has skills however that could be used up the ground.

Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #148 – April 10, 2016, 01:15:07 pm

Quote from: Professer E – on April 10, 2016, 12:48:07 pm

Lods they are good players, but are they the right players is the question we need to ask.

Yep
Are they the right players for us....going forward?
Some of them may even benefit from the change and tear it up for their new sides...but have we seen the best of them as Carlton players.
If that's the judgment move them on with no regrets.

Re: Rd 3: Carlton vs Gold Coast: Post Game Pain

Reply #149 – April 10, 2016, 01:35:06 pm

Quote from: Gointocarlton – on April 10, 2016, 01:02:55 pm

Im abit of a 2E basher, my only criticism is that he should be taken out of defence and played up the ground. He could be a wing-HF weapon potentially. I think his defensive skills have not developed to a level that warrants leaving him there. He has skills however that could be used up the ground.

Great in theory but who takes his spot down back?