Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

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Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #75 – April 12, 2016, 08:18:54 pm

Quote from: age – on April 12, 2016, 05:17:43 pm

Wes hould be playing the kids. Ready or not.

KJ, Plowman, Cunningham, DVR. Throw them in and see what they can do over an extended period

Cunningham apparently did alright. Had 21 disposals, 12 contested, 9 hardball gets, 3 clearances, 7 handball recieves.

COACH'S VIEW
"First possession around stoppages was impressive, his ability to move away from clearances and stay involved in the contest was good especially for a young player."

Like you said, give them all a run. Sumner too soon, as he seems to be going alright, once he gets more match fitness.

Our team looks sh1t right but at least there's a bit waiting in the wings. Get them in I say.

Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #76 – April 12, 2016, 08:31:47 pm

I think there's two strategies running side by side at the moment, with some cross over.

There's the list turnover, testing and development strategy and there's the coaching, game plan strategy.

I suspect the first strategy is taking precedent.

Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #77 – April 12, 2016, 08:38:19 pm

Quote from: Amers – on April 12, 2016, 03:44:39 pm

we are not going to see the radical improvement that Port and the WB's saw in their 1st year under a new coach

WB new coach had a list that was 4 years ahead of our. Might have something to do with it.

Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #78 – April 12, 2016, 09:11:41 pm

Quote from: DJC – on April 12, 2016, 02:17:43 pm

I'm not sure what I'm missing when watching Kreuzer this season. I'm certainly not seeing the broken down has been other folk are complaining about.

I don't know that I have seen a broken down has been. But what I have seen is a guy struggling to find form with an intermediate style of rucking. He isn't beating the guys who depend on strength and aggression, nor is he beating the guys who leap.

Quote from: DJC – on April 12, 2016, 02:17:43 pm

First of all, I think Kreuzer is spending too much time as a forward. That's not his caper and we need his second and third efforts around the ground.

Kreuzer has been playing forward for 2 reasons.
The first is that we haven't got a lot of drive when he has been in the middle. We have had a little more with Phillips, but not a lot more.
The second is that our forward line has been desperate for someone other than Casboult to kick the ball towards. Kreuzer CAN take a strong mark he took a few last year and we certainly took more than a few a couple of years back. Unfortunately he has struggled and hasn't been able to hold a mark as a forward, which, I agree, is not his best position. He does better to be a shock forward for short time periods, because he actually can lead. That we can't kick to his advantage is another of our issues, but that is for another time.

Quote from: DJC – on April 12, 2016, 02:17:43 pm

Secondly, if you look at the hitouts won by each side's two ruckmen (or ruckmen/forwards), we're not far off the pace and are in a group of 8 teams that are averaging 38 to 41 hitouts in the three games.

The actual tap out numbers can be misleading. There are tap outs and there are tap outs. Look at Nic Nat and most of his taps are very clean and well directed to his midfielders. Cox, although he used his strength more than just his leap, also got quite clean taps. Sandilands does not always get as much value for his taps as they are not always clean, nor as well directed. But he has improved in this area over the last couple of years.
Kreuzer is getting his hands to the ball more than his opponents this year, but they have not been clean. The way he has been rucking he has had his opponents interfering with his taps. That was very clear when playing against the taller and higher jumping Nicholls last weekend and against Hampson during Round 1. Hampson used his extra height and reach to hit the hand or arm and change the direction or strength of the tap. The result was the ball going wide or dying before it got to Murphy or Cripps, or hitting them so hard that they couldn't control the ball.
I am not sure what he can do about that.
Last year against Melbourne, Kreuzer got his hand to the ball very cleanly in the first half. He got his confidence up and he ran Gawn around and into the ground. He managed goals through his work rate and managed to get to contests to make a difference.
After half time he tired a bit and Gawn started to interfere with his taps. All of a sudden our mids didn't get clean position. We also had a run of bad luck, a few terrible decisions and a few really bad disposal mistakes that Melbourne used to get back into the game.
We tightened up in the clearances and Kreuzer managed to get his hand to the ball again and we hung on to win.
He needs to start getting cleaner taps again to make our centre structure work better.

That said, it is not all his fault. Our primary mids are not seeming to work as well at the clearances at the moment. A few times each game we really get a distinct advantage and a mid charging down the middle of the ground. Cripps did a couple against Sydney in the last NAB Cup game, the blocking or whatever worked and Cripps was left with an open field and he made Sydney pay.
At times I think I can see what we are trying to do, but it isn't working very well at the moment. Small fumbles or ordinary disposal and the ball doesn't come cleanly and the mid doesn't get the clean break. Can't execute under pressure yet?
I can't remember the last time I saw Murphy or Gibbs get their handballs intercepted when they were not being tackled like they did last week. They looked like they were aiming for a particular spot and the opposing mid read it better than our mid did. Ablett and Hall had a number of those, especially as we didn't tag them.
Whatever it is, we haven't been getting the ball out.

Quote from: DJC – on April 12, 2016, 02:17:43 pm

West Coast is leading with 54, Freo and Melbourne have 44 and then it's Adelaide, Hawthorn, Port, Sydney, St Kilda, North, Carlton and Collingwood. The teams with the poorest performing rucks are Richmond, GWS, Essendon, Brisbane, Bulldogs, Gold Coast and Geelong.

Richmond hasn't broke even in the ruck since Round 1 and it isn't all Hampson's fault. Other than him, Richmond haven't had anything yet and their mids have been down.
Essendon's ruck division is a distinct weakness. Leuenberger is better than anything they had last year, but he isn't killing teams. In many ways he is like Kreuzer: he often gets a tap with interference from his opposition ruckman. When they get a tap, however, Leuenberger hasn't been able to interfere with their taps. And other than him, they have nothing of significance.
Brisbane I am not sure about. I haven't seen them so far this year.
Other than Round 1, Geelong's rucks have not impressed. They were awful when they lost and not overly impressive against Brisbane from what I heard on the radio. It was Geelong's mids who slaughtered Brisbane, not their rucks.
West Coast don't only have the most taps, but NicNat gives the probably the best quality taps in the competition.
Fremantle still have big numbers even with Sandilands well below his best. The question is how will they do now that he is hurt.
In many ways the Dogs don't need a huge number of taps. Roughead plays like the Hawthorn ruckman and nullifies his opponent, while the Dogs mids read the ball and have a system to get it out. They have the sure ball handling we lack yet.
Gold Coast are similar. Nicholls doesn't get huge numbers, but he negates the usefulness of his opponents. Then GC gave quality mids who read the resultant open ball and get the break. They certainly did that against us.
Adelaide have a class act in Jacobs and he has some decent back-up when he needs it. Their mids are also mature and playing well, even without Dangerfield.
GWS have Mumford, who is the prototype Bull Ruckman. He has real presence even when he doesn't get the tap and he take marks around the ground.
North have one of the best ruckmen in Goldstein, but he does his best work around the ground. I don't think he has been in great form as yet either.

Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #79 – April 12, 2016, 09:24:45 pm

Quote from: townsendcalling – on April 12, 2016, 08:38:19 pm

WB new coach had a list that was 4 years ahead of our. Might have something to do with it.

Beveridge certainly had a lot of preparation done before he got there. The Dogs had some good luck with the F/S picks (Libba and co) and made some good recruiting decisions (McRae and Stringer, for example). These guys are a LOT further along than most of our guys.
The they did a huge amount of work with their previous coach that Beveridge recognized and got the benefit from.
They also seem to have the VFL structure that we appear to be trying to make this year and have had it for a couple of years. Their development is going the way we are trying to emulate.
I don't know if they are 4 years ahead of us, but they are certainly well past us on the development curve and are now reaping some rewards. Two or 3 years back, they looked very much like we do at the moment; immature, list in transition, skills lacking and not performing confidently or consistently.

Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #80 – April 12, 2016, 09:35:12 pm

Quote from: laj – on April 12, 2016, 08:18:54 pm

Cunningham apparently did alright. Had 21 disposals, 12 contested, 9 hardball gets, 3 clearances, 7 handball recieves.

COACH'S VIEW
"First possession around stoppages was impressive, his ability to move away from clearances and stay involved in the contest was good especially for a young player."

Like you said, give them all a run. Sumner too soon, as he seems to be going alright, once he gets more match fitness.

Our team looks sh1t right but at least there's a bit waiting in the wings. Get them in I say.

I must admit I would be loath to bring them along too quickly. They are developing and I am very happy to see that after years of having nobody develop at all.
Both DVR and Cunningham have one thing that may get them in sooner rather than later: their pace. Our centre structure is very much under construction at the moment, but both of these guys managed match-ups that allowed them to get a few really significant break aways from the centre. Then, with decent kicks, they managed to get the ball into dangerous positions very quickly.
They also used that pace to run guys down in the middle, where Murphy, Gibbs and Cripps would struggle to make something similar with their lesser speeds.
Physically I don't think either DVR or Cunningham are ready yet either. A guy like Josh Kennedy would bury them. And both lads can get lost for some periods of time yet. But they have shown enough to suggest that they are not that far away.

Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #81 – April 13, 2016, 08:19:24 am

Leaving aside the quality and speed of delivery of the ball into our F50, our biggest problem is not our "non existent" forward line, but the lack of defensive pressure applied by our mids whenever we cough the ball up.....there is simply none.

Not sure if too many of our mids are caught ahead of the ball or what, but as soon as there is a turnover, it's pretty much a guaranteed easy, no pressure goal for the other team.

That is our biggest weakness, by far imo.

Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #82 – April 13, 2016, 08:27:00 am

Quote from: flyboy77 – on April 13, 2016, 08:19:24 am

Leaving aside the quality and speed of delivery of the ball into our F50, our biggest problem is not our "non existent" forward line, but the lack of defensive pressure applied by our mids whenever we cough the ball up.....there is simply none.

Not sure if too many of our mids are caught ahead of the ball or what, but as soon as there is a turnover, it's pretty much a guaranteed easy, no pressure goal for the other team.

That is our biggest weakness, by far imo.

And that's been a major problem for years.

Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #83 – April 13, 2016, 09:37:00 am

Quote from: flyboy77 – on April 13, 2016, 08:19:24 am

Leaving aside the quality and speed of delivery of the ball into our F50, our biggest problem is not our "non existent" forward line, but the lack of defensive pressure applied by our mids whenever we cough the ball up.....there is simply none.

Not sure if too many of our mids are caught ahead of the ball or what, but as soon as there is a turnover, it's pretty much a guaranteed easy, no pressure goal for the other team.

That is our biggest weakness, by far imo.

I think you can extend that to defensive pressure everywhere on the ground. We have no pressure in the forward 50, not much in the midfield (especially late in the game) and the backline is too slow to man up and plug gaps.

Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #84 – April 13, 2016, 10:35:32 am

Quote from: crashlander – on April 12, 2016, 09:35:12 pm

I must admit I would be loath to bring them along too quickly. They are developing and I am very happy to see that after years of having nobody develop at all.
Both DVR and Cunningham have one thing that may get them in sooner rather than later: their pace. Our centre structure is very much under construction at the moment, but both of these guys managed match-ups that allowed them to get a few really significant break aways from the centre. Then, with decent kicks, they managed to get the ball into dangerous positions very quickly.
They also used that pace to run guys down in the middle, where Murphy, Gibbs and Cripps would struggle to make something similar with their lesser speeds.
Physically I don't think either DVR or Cunningham are ready yet either. A guy like Josh Kennedy would bury them. And both lads can get lost for some periods of time yet. But they have shown enough to suggest that they are not that far away.

Really good observations Capt Crash. I do think though that DVRs body has certainly gained some muscle (along with Gowers) and would be ready for the next stage of his development - a taste of the big time. Cuningham will need to work on his strength though. What I liked about his last game was his footy brain - he gave off quickly to blokes in better positions and can use his turn of speed to advantage. As raw as both boys are, they both look like footballers and IF they can continue to improve and develop will certainly give us some dash through the midfield. Much needed dash. DVRs delivery by foot really is close to elite.

Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #85 – April 13, 2016, 10:51:00 am

Quote from: Baggers – on April 13, 2016, 10:35:32 am

Really good observations Capt Crash. I do think though that DVRs body has certainly gained some muscle (along with Gowers) and would be ready for the next stage of his development - a taste of the big time. Cuningham will need to work on his strength though. What I liked about his last game was his footy brain - he gave off quickly to blokes in better positions and can use his turn of speed to advantage. As raw as both boys are, they both look like footballers and IF they can continue to improve and develop will certainly give us some dash through the midfield. Much needed dash. DVRs delivery by foot really is close to elite.

Its good to hear those raps on DVR. As I have stated, I was at his first training session after he was drafted and what stood out for me was the way he moved and his kicking (beautiful left footer as most are - apologies S Grigg). He seemed to have "lost" it but from all reports seems to have got back mojo that we based our picking him on.

Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #86 – April 13, 2016, 10:52:30 am

Quote from: crashlander – on April 12, 2016, 09:35:12 pm

I must admit I would be loath to bring them along too quickly. They are developing and I am very happy to see that after years of having nobody develop at all.
Both DVR and Cunningham have one thing that may get them in sooner rather than later: their pace. Our centre structure is very much under construction at the moment, but both of these guys managed match-ups that allowed them to get a few really significant break aways from the centre. Then, with decent kicks, they managed to get the ball into dangerous positions very quickly.
They also used that pace to run guys down in the middle, where Murphy, Gibbs and Cripps would struggle to make something similar with their lesser speeds.
Physically I don't think either DVR or Cunningham are ready yet either. A guy like Josh Kennedy would bury them. And both lads can get lost for some periods of time yet. But they have shown enough to suggest that they are not that far away.

That's why you have other experienced players in too. I just want to change the nature of the side. Leave out players from the last couple of years and let some of these new blokes leave their imprint in a different way. Cunningham, DVR and Sumner suddenly give you alot more pace and run. If we lose so be it, just want to see something different.

Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #87 – April 13, 2016, 11:22:07 am

Quote from: laj – on April 13, 2016, 10:52:30 am

That's why you have other experienced players in too. I just want to change the nature of the side. Leave out players from the last couple of years and let some of these new blokes leave their imprint in a different way. Cunningham, DVR and Sumner suddenly give you alot more pace and run. If we lose so be it, just want to see something different.

See where you're coming from Jim. We have got to break the mould set by some of our older players before we can truly start to move forward significantly. At the same time we have to be wary of over exposing our current youth and demoralising them, as we have with others in recent years.

Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #88 – April 13, 2016, 11:35:42 am

Quote from: laj – on April 13, 2016, 10:52:30 am

That's why you have other experienced players in too. I just want to change the nature of the side. Leave out players from the last couple of years and let some of these new blokes leave their imprint in a different way. Cunningham, DVR and Sumner suddenly give you alot more pace and run. If we lose so be it, just want to see something different.

Tend to agree...this year is about finding 2-4 good young blokes who can play senior footy at a decent standard, then the same thing next year and building a core group to take the club forward.

DVR may not get another contract if he doesnt show something this season and he need some senior footy to make some judgements on his future...Cunningham can be held back and maybe just given a taste at years end. Boekhorst is another who needs a big season IMO, being a controversial Rogers choice wont help him either and he needs to show more than what he has so far...

Re: Rd 4: Pre Game Pressure: Carlton vs. Western Bulldogs

Reply #89 – April 13, 2016, 11:38:19 am

Crippa for us, The Bont for them. If nothing else I will be watching who shows more. These two will be compared for years to come as they are both excitement machines. To me it will be like the Judd v Ablett debate. Like Ablett, Bontempelli kicks more goals, Cripps does more heavy work inside. Two young guns who are unbelievably good to watch.