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Topic: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood (Read 40723 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #120 –
IMHO, Form can be fickle.

Part of helping players get through a flat patch, is to take the pressure out of the situation and help them through it using an open and honest method of feedback.

What are they doing well?
What could they be doing better?
What can we do to try and get that functioning more appropriately?
Is it a conditioning thing?  If so, I think that will be relatively evident.  Giving Weiters a spell might be helpful, but not when there is no one putting his hand up.

At the end of the day the entire team is looking a bit flat.  Let's hope that they are flogging them on the training track in an effort to get us primed for next year.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #121 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
At the end of the day the entire team is looking a bit flat.  Let's hope that they are flogging them on the training track in an effort to get us primed for next year.

I'd suggest there is more to it than that, it looks to me like some of the players have slipped into their old ways after a brief honeymoon period.

If that is true, if there is a bit of growing dissension, I'd be getting the kids out of that environment quick smart even if it means they have a rest and the old legs have to pick up the slack for the rest of 2016. Let's not poison the well just to keep consuming some dregs.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #122 –
Why do we continue to get smashed around the stoppages?

Nothing ever changes.....that used to be one of our strengths?
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #123 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
Why do we continue to get smashed around the stoppages?

Nothing ever changes.....that used to be one of our strengths?

stats from the game :

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #124 –
well in this instance i stand corrected - on paper, at least!
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #125 –
Stats are useful if people understand their limits, and if they apply the information correctly.

In this case, it shows we don't have an issue getting first use. we don't have an issue getting our hands on the ball. It's what happens after that causes the problems.

Bolton referenced CHF a couple of times in his presser - as we all know, our forward line and delivery into the forward line are the major problems.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #126 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Stats are useful if people understand their limits, and if they apply the information correctly.

In this case, it shows we don't have an issue getting first use. we don't have an issue getting our hands on the ball. It's what happens after that causes the problems.

Bolton referenced CHF a couple of times in his presser - as we all know, our forward line and delivery into the forward line are the major problems.

Stats are only useful with combined with other stats to get a total picture.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #127 –
Further you have toi know what a "Clearance" is defined as before you can understand the stats;

For example if Kreuzer or Phillips tap the ball clear of the pack is that a clearance?

What if our ruck taps the ball to the advantage of Gibbs or Cripps and they handball it to Sidebottom, who gets the clearance stat?

It's fraught with danger to rely on these stats too much, because the line of clearance is subjective.

On Saturday night we were clearly beaten in the midfield, possibly our worst effort in several weeks, just go back and watch the number of clear taps from Kreuzer or Phillips that went straight to Collingwood players.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #128 –
From what I can see a clearance is credited to the player who has the first disposal in the chain that clears the stoppage area to either teams advantage.

Question then is whether a tap or hitout from the ruck contest is counted as a disposal or whether a disposal is determined strictly as a legal disposal by hand or foot?
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #129 –
Quote from: LP – on
Further you have toi know what a "Clearance" is defined as before you can understand the stats;

For example if Kreuzer or Phillips tap the ball clear of the pack is that a clearance?

What if our ruck taps the ball to the advantage of Gibbs or Cripps and they handball it to Sidebottom, who gets the clearance stat?

It's fraught with danger to rely on these stats too much, because the line of clearance is subjective.

On Saturday night we were clearly beaten in the midfield, possibly our worst effort in several weeks, just go back and watch the number of clear taps from Kreuzer or Phillips that went straight to Collingwood players.

Yes, I would agree - I also read somewhere that the different data collection agencies may define it differently.

In your first example (Krooz / Phillips) IMO this should count as a clearance.

In the ruck to Cripps to Sidebttom example, IMO this should count as a clearance to us, then a turnover, but i have no idea if this is the way they are interpreted.

As I stated earlier, Bolts made 2 references to CHF, making it clear to me that this is where he feels it really unravels. He made mention of the positive differential in the clearance, CP, and I50 stats, so at a guess they may not be so much of an issue for him.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #130 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
From what I can see a clearance is credited to the player who has the first disposal in the chain that clears the stoppage area to either teams advantage.

Question then is whether a tap or hitout from the ruck contest is counted as a disposal or whether a disposal is determined strictly as a legal disposal by hand or foot?

It has to be kick or handpass that clears the stoppage area - even if it goes directly to an opponent.  I guess that would be picked up in the turnovers/disposal efficiency stats.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #131 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Stats are useful if people understand their limits, and if they apply the information correctly.

In this case, it shows we don't have an issue getting first use. we don't have an issue getting our hands on the ball. It's what happens after that causes the problems.

Bolton referenced CHF a couple of times in his presser - as we all know, our forward line and delivery into the forward line are the major problems.

Granted Casboult, Everitt et all are playing like gooses but our midfield/ruck is a far larger problem imo. Fix that, the forwards will 'improve' immeasurably.

Simple fact is (sadly) - and noting he's still relatively young - but Kreuzer simply doesn't cut it against the better ruckman in the league these days.

Cripps is either injured or missing in action and Gibbs gets tagged stupid every game now. Curnow in a lull and Sam having a quiet patch too.

Really need to acquire a top notch inside mid asap.

And our midfield goes missing way too often, especially defensively.
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #132 –
Quote from: DJC – on
It has to be kick or handpass that clears the stoppage area - even if it goes directly to an opponent.  I guess that would be picked up in the turnovers/disposal efficiency stats.

Thanks DJC. Do you know what is the definition of the stoppage area? I can't find one anywhere.
Reality always wins in the end.
 

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #133 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
Granted Casboult, Everitt et all are playing like gooses but our midfield/ruck is a far larger problem imo. Fix that, the forwards will 'improve' immeasurably.

Simple fact is (sadly) - and noting he's still relatively young - but Kreuzer simply doesn't cut it against the better ruckman in the league these days.

Cripps is either injured or missing in action and Gibbs gets tagged stupid every game now. Curnow in a lull and Sam having a quiet patch too.

Really need to acquire a top notch inside mid asap.

And our midfield goes missing way too often, especially defensively.

I agree fly - I'm one of the few on here who prioritize 2 elite mids above all else. 2 Dangerfield / Selwood types, with a decent supporting cast - terribly important IMO.

Re: Rd 15: Post Game Frustrations: Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #134 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Thanks DJC. Do you know what is the definition of the stoppage area? I can't find one anywhere.

Outside of the area you could throw a blanket over?

No, I don't know Cookie.  Perhaps Champion Data could provide definitions.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!