Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

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Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #75 – August 14, 2016, 02:55:41 pm

I think Casboult is a good option as the 2nd marking target, he's no good when he has the main marking role.

McKay and C.Curnow will be the key to Casboult's retention and success. If they can hold a spot in the 1s Casboult will be a difficult match for anybody.

Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #76 – August 14, 2016, 03:18:20 pm

Quote from: Vivian – on August 14, 2016, 11:25:52 am

No conundrum for me. He upped his value a little on the trade table. He is a liability most of the time as he doesn't work hard enough, failing to get seperation from his opponent. His kicking is horrific. A highlights reel of contested marks is great, but at his age, he is unlikely to improve.

Could imagine a few teams willing to look at him.

The only issue is that perhaps being on the list another year may act as a bridge season so curnow and mckay can develop. But when casboult has only managed a goal a game as it is this year, his absense may not present as much of a problem.

So we trade him away for two tenths of feck all and the team he goes to turns him into a goal kicking machine, that wont hurt a bit.

Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #77 – August 14, 2016, 03:23:41 pm

Quote from: Vivian – on August 14, 2016, 02:49:54 pm

Two key forwards would be grand indeed. Two good ones that is. Casboult is not good enough. He might take a great grab and lead up the wings. League footy is not played like that anymore. Key forwards, if the term has any meaning anymore, must be mobile, double back and work into space to offer marking and scoring opportunities. They need to run more than they ever have.

That is why we play 2 rucks, offering the potential for mobile marking options across the ground. The fixation with a 2 forward, 1 ruck as a style of play that is the answer is past. Apart from a couple of rucks in goldstein and gawn who have shown they can ruck most of a game, one ruck with a part time forward ruck is rarely effective in building the style that bolton wants. Even goldstein is looking tired later in the season. Our number one ruck in Kruezer is almost busted.

So yes, we do need two forwards. We need more than two of them. Good ones that can play as modern league forwards need to to create scoring opportunities. Mobility, pressure and second efforts are more important now than height or contested marking prowess. And accurate kicking helps too. We didn't have two good forwards playing yesterday. Adelaide may approximate the two key forward style that is so often being discussed. But walker and jenkins play in a fashion that casboult is not able to deliver.

Sivagni, despite his youth, played in a way yesterday that is more promising for the future than the traditional key forward lead up marking type.

If we could trade casboult for a low third rounder we should jump at it. Maybe richmond will trade their second round pick to us.

Forwards get up to the wing often all the time.

I think Casboult might be good enough, at least in his own right. Certainly not Buddy or Kennedy but does the job. If anyone thought he could hold the whole forward line up in a crap side as the only key forward and play well needs to understand the game better. Last year we were headed for a higher 2nd rounder but decided to keep him. There was real interest. Carlton rate him, opposition, more importantly, certainly rate and respect him, I think that's what you go by, not by supporter opinion. If you think we should jump at a low 3rd rounder you're a definitely kidding yourself. Club would be smashed again for bad trading taking "unders". How many more players would you like to see play well at other clubs that we give away for bugger all.

SOS is a 3rd tall. Can't rely on a 3rd tall to take the main goal kicking role. Defenders will smash him as he'll take the no. 1 defender. If you know you're footy you'll understand that. We've rarely had big scoring key forwards, even in our great days, Fev excepted, but doesn't mean they can't play well and other forwards feed off it. Last year, Casboult averaged 1.5 a game playing half the year as a permanent 2nd ruck. They average was higher when he played the combined key forward/ruck role in the second half of his year. We had a 2nd key forward and while Henderson was terrible and disinterested no defence could take their eye off him for a second. Meant he took a man or two, freeing up Casboult and Everitt to score, the latter scoring 31 goals. In an awful year those two had good years and hit the scoreboard. Soon as we had a second key forward yesterday Casboult scored 4.2, which really should've been 6. Last time he was allowed to play the forward/ruck role, Collingwood game, he took 11 marks, 7 contested, kicked 3.1. Notably too this year, when we've had two key forward we have scored alot higher as it opens it up for others to score. Everitt hit the scoreboard too. Moral of the story, pick the right structured side and play players to their strengths. Let him go and watch how you miss him. He is needed while our young key forwards develop to take the physical heat. McKay will play games next year so Casboult will definitely be needed to take the physical heat of the defence, or would you like our kids to take that on their own. I'm sure you understand that. Once they develop then we can phase Casboult out, but not before.

Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #78 – August 14, 2016, 03:27:21 pm

Quote from: LP – on August 14, 2016, 02:55:41 pm

I think Casboult is a good option as the 2nd marking target, he's no good when he has the main marking role.

McKay and C.Curnow will be the key to Casboult's retention and success. If they can hold a spot in the 1s Casboult will be a difficult match for anybody.

We often dispute alot on Levi but we agree here. He often did well when he was 2nd marking target to Waite and Henderson. At worst we have to have two key forwards as he's not that good that he can hold a forward line up on his own. Levi will be great the heat while McKay develops then as he does, Casboult become the 2nd key target making him more dangerous.

Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #79 – August 14, 2016, 03:55:48 pm

Quote from: LP – on August 14, 2016, 02:55:41 pm

I think Casboult is a good option as the 2nd marking target, he's no good when he has the main marking role.

McKay and C.Curnow will be the key to Casboult's retention and success. If they can hold a spot in the 1s Casboult will be a difficult match for anybody.

We need a specialist Full Forward who is a straight kick and leads for the ball....Casboult becomes the second option as does the long bomb to a pack and if the ball is bombed more than often it will be the Boult vs his man only rather than every defender hanging off him....the Boult would have enjoyed working with Fev at his peak.

Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #80 – August 14, 2016, 04:03:37 pm

Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on August 14, 2016, 03:55:48 pm

We need a specialist Full Forward who is a straight kick and leads for the ball....Casboult becomes the second option as does the long bomb to a pack and if the ball is bombed more than often it will be the Boult vs his man only rather than every defender hanging off him....the Boult would have enjoyed working with Fev at his peak.

Yep, Fev leading inside F50 and around the arc with Levi more playing further out or moving into space created by Fevs leads, giving a different option. All we need to do is find that good leading KPF!

Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #81 – August 14, 2016, 04:35:53 pm

Quote from: Gointocarlton – on August 14, 2016, 10:47:16 am

Such a conundrum when you see him kick and mark like yesterday. His best is very very good.

Let's not forget we were playing a team beaten by 140 points the week before with a percentage of 60 after 21 rounds.
Casboult is 26, has 70 games under his belt and averages under a goal and less than 10 possessions per game.
It would be different if he was a young kid on the way up but his numbers this season are near enough to or just under his career averages, what you see with Levi is what you get.

Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #82 – August 14, 2016, 05:06:55 pm

Why haven't Jaksch or Foster been played as specialist FF playing from the square? Foster kicked 50+ in his last U18 year playing as a lead up FF, he can certainly play the role.

Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #83 – August 14, 2016, 06:36:13 pm

Uncanny how many times I go to say something on here only to find that Jim has beaten me to it.

Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #84 – August 14, 2016, 06:59:21 pm

Quote from: blue4life – on August 14, 2016, 04:35:53 pm

Let's not forget we were playing a team beaten by 140 points the week before with a percentage of 60 after 21 rounds.
Casboult is 26, has 70 games under his belt and averages under a goal and less than 10 possessions per game.
It would be different if he was a young kid on the way up but his numbers this season are near enough to or just under his career averages, what you see with Levi is what you get.

If that's the situation then the question becomes "is Casboult worth more to us as a part of our team, or is he worth more to us as a trade option. I see him as a player who actually has a bit of trade value, certainly more than many on the list who are sometimes suggested as good trade options.
To get something of value you have to give up something of value.When McKay, Curnow, Silvagni and maybe a player like young Ben Silvagni are our forward line will there be a place for a player who takes a good mark but is only a 50/50 proposition as a goalkicker?
A player like Casboult may have enough value for another team who are prepared to pay a good price. But we won't know that until negotiations start. If we get a good offer we should definitely consider it because we know what we've got with Casboult and there isn't much more to learn.

Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #85 – August 14, 2016, 07:13:46 pm

Quote from: Peter Brady – on August 14, 2016, 06:59:21 pm

To get something of value you have to give up something of value.

1. Don't agree with that at all, if a club sees a need for a Casboult type they'll pay and we won't have to give up squat! It's not a swap meet, I don't want us doing any more Hampson type deals. Sellers have control, not buyers.

Quote from: Peter Brady – on August 14, 2016, 06:59:21 pm

When McKay, Curnow, Silvagni and maybe a player like young Ben Silvagni are our forward line will there be a place for a player who takes a good mark but is only a 50/50 proposition as a goalkicker?

2. It's a good point, but Casboult is here now and Ben Silvagni is a mirage on the horizon!

Quote from: Peter Brady – on August 14, 2016, 06:59:21 pm

A player like Casboult may have enough value for another team who are prepared to pay a good price. But we won't know that until negotiations start. If we get a good offer we should definitely consider it because we know what we've got with Casboult and there isn't much more to learn.

3. See point 1, and I think Cloke coming on the market has significantly de-valued Casboult this trade period. Plus Cloke coming on the market has made it harder for Casboult to demand a high price. You would think a club "In the hunt at this moment" would opt for the 29 year old Cloke versus the 26 year old Casboult.

Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #86 – August 14, 2016, 07:23:01 pm

Quote from: blue4life – on August 14, 2016, 04:35:53 pm

Let's not forget we were playing a team beaten by 140 points the week before with a percentage of 60 after 21 rounds.
Casboult is 26, has 70 games under his belt and averages under a goal and less than 10 possessions per game.
It would be different if he was a young kid on the way up but his numbers this season are near enough to or just under his career averages, what you see with Levi is what you get.

We've never had key forwards with huge totals bar Fev and before that Sticks and Jezza. Never stopped them playing decent footy though. He's decent enough and we need him for a couple more years yet. We've lost all our other one's. Our coaching staff and importantly other clubs certainly rate him. His marking average is up there with most of the best. He was kicking goals yesterday when the rest of the side wasn't. Actually career averages exactly one goal a game. Given he's spent alot of his time here as our 2nd ruck that's acceptable. Averaged 1.5 last year. Wallsy and Maclure were guns and only 1.7 and 1.5.

Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #87 – August 14, 2016, 07:26:05 pm

Quote from: Peter Brady – on August 14, 2016, 06:59:21 pm

If that's the situation then the question becomes "is Casboult worth more to us as a part of our team, or is he worth more to us as a trade option. I see him as a player who actually has a bit of trade value, certainly more than many on the list who are sometimes suggested as good trade options.
To get something of value you have to give up something of value.When McKay, Curnow, Silvagni and maybe a player like young Ben Silvagni are our forward line will there be a place for a player who takes a good mark but is only a 50/50 proposition as a goalkicker?
A player like Casboult may have enough value for another team who are prepared to pay a good price. But we won't know that until negotiations start. If we get a good offer we should definitely consider it because we know what we've got with Casboult and there isn't much more to learn.

Worth more to us unless you want to see Harry McKay get smashed around as he tries to develop. Levi needs to be the one to take that heat in thee shorter term. Think that answer that question. Won't be traded unless he chooses to go.

Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #88 – August 14, 2016, 07:38:03 pm

Early in the season we were getting a lot of value from our 2nd string players. Now they are really struggling.
Kerridge looks tired and isn't at his best. Nor has this tiredness helped his decision making.
Wright was good for a long time, but he has also run out of juice and no longer goes under the radar.
Sumner ran out of gas some weeks back and now has been dropped.
Lamb has been similar: he was producing 20 possessions a game around the time of the bye.
Armfield has gone off the boil, although a lot more recently. He was excellent a few weeks back.
These guys were the difference between victory and defeat earlier in the year.

Casboult had a good one, but that hasn't happened much this year.
Liam Jones was OK, but not brilliant.
Silvagni has shown something, but hasn't really got heaps of the ball yet.
Some of their issues come from our appalling forward football. Kicking the ball long for pack marks that don't happen, or looking from crumbs which we don't get, appears a very poor way of getting the ball forward. Have our mids and defenders ever heard of lowering the eyes and looking for a leading forward?

Re: Rd 21: Post Game Passion: Carlton vs Brisbane

Reply #89 – August 14, 2016, 07:43:41 pm

Quote from: Peter Brady – on August 14, 2016, 06:59:21 pm

If that's the situation then the question becomes "is Casboult worth more to us as a part of our team, or is he worth more to us as a trade option. I see him as a player who actually has a bit of trade value, certainly more than many on the list who are sometimes suggested as good trade options.
To get something of value you have to give up something of value.When McKay, Curnow, Silvagni and maybe a player like young Ben Silvagni are our forward line will there be a place for a player who takes a good mark but is only a 50/50 proposition as a goalkicker?
A player like Casboult may have enough value for another team who are prepared to pay a good price. But we won't know that until negotiations start. If we get a good offer we should definitely consider it because we know what we've got with Casboult and there isn't much more to learn.

I reckon Cripps has more chance of playing as a key forward than Charlie Curnow and Silvagni do. The latter two should be important parts of our forward line but we still need at least two key forwards and a back up or two.

If Ben Silvagni continues to progress and is drafted in 2018, he may or may not make his debut in 2019. Until then, we have McKay, with potential but doubts about his durability, and Jones, Foster and Jaksch not showing much at all. Then we have Casboult averaging a goal a game, rated 6th in the competition for contested marks and with the size, attitude and actions to intimidate opponents. We also know that there is limited key position talent in the coming draft. Trading Casboult might get us another swag of GWS rejects or another midfielder from an early draft pick, but we're not going to get another key forward for Casboult.

I would be signing Casboult to a three year deal.