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Loyalty

Loyalty.....
To an old timer like myself I’ve always considered it pretty important. If the club is loyal to the player we hope that it’s reciprocated and the player “sticks fat”, often taking a salary less than they could obtain elsewhere.
We don’t trade our Gibbses, Murphys, Kreuzers. They’re the heart and soul of the club and we need them there to provide guidance and experience for the youngsters coming through.

Loyalty comes in a number of levels
There’s the supporter…they’re the top level
Blue until they die.

There’s another level…that’s almost on a par. A group of players who’ve enjoyed success together will always be Carlton (even a Wayne Harmes ;) :D) but in a way their loyalty is more to each other as a group than the club.

Some players may still have a special Carlton spot even when they move…Betts has expressed it, Fev probably considers himself much more Carlton than Brisbane.

Then there are the players who’ve never enjoyed that success. I wonder how often the 2004-5 Carlton playing list gets together. 

Loyalty is being highlighted at the moment in the Gibbs thread but….

I’ve changed my mind about loyalty.
We look at the Bulldogs and a player like Murphy and see that as a great example of “club/player” loyalty….but would Murphy be held in as high esteem without the success.

Success is what’s important…what’s best for the club.
Everyone’s tradeable.
It’s the price that’s important.
It’s a new world…and even though that’s a bit sad.
That’s the reality.
Convince me otherwise ;)

Re: Loyalty

Reply #1 –
Quote from: Lods – on

We look at the Bulldogs and a player like Murphy and see that as a great example of “club/player” loyalty….but would Murphy be held in as high esteem without the success.

I'm pretty sure the answer to that question is a resounding absofarkenlutely. Bob Murphy is a one in a million, very well spoken, very articulate and very thoughtful. You just have to listen to how he is spoken about especially by his team mates. A premiership coach wouldnt give his medal to any old Joe Blow.

As for the rest of the loyalty argument? There will be a thousand different opinions on it. I personally think you can't have success and a good culture without it.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Loyalty

Reply #2 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
I'm pretty sure the answer to that question is a resounding absofarkenlutely. Bob Murphy is a one in a million, very well spoken, very articulate and very thoughtful. You just have to listen to how he is spoken about especially by his team mates. A premiership coach wouldnt give his medal to any old Joe Blow.

As for the rest of the loyalty argument? There will be a thousand different opinions on it. I personally think you can't have success and a good culture without it.

Apart from his ignorant comments on the Essendon situation he's always been one of my favourite opposition players....but the Bulldogs success this year has highlighted his contribution to the club.
Would it be the same without the success?
On the other hand how much did it contribute to the success.
I want to be persuaded that loyalty is still valid.

Re: Loyalty

Reply #3 –
Quote from: Lods – on
I want to be persuaded that loyalty is still valid.
I don't think its something one can be persuaded on. Its one of those strange topics, you either believe in it or you don't. Its a massive part of my life and upbringing, I can't be convinced otherwise. But thats not to say, I don't understand someone not being fiercely loyal for say financial reasons. You just have to find passengers who are wanting to catch the same train.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Loyalty

Reply #4 –
There is certainly still a place for loyalty, as long as it is not a significant sacrifice the club has to make in order to achieve it.

Putting 1 player ahead of the other 44-odd players on the list in the name of loyalty is not being very loyal to the other players is it.

Re: Loyalty

Reply #5 –
Are we just looking at the examples of when they were loyal?

I think you could make a case for Simpson and Kreuzer as the fabric of the club but Murphy and Gibbs?

Gibbs admitted himself this year that he hasn't always been that driven and was happy just playing AFL.

The club must always come first second and third, exactly what happened at the Bulldogs and every other successful club in the history of the game.

Re: Loyalty

Reply #6 –
I agree with Lods. Ever since Barassi was quoted as saying '...loyalty is portable...', when he left Melbourne to join the Blues, the landscape changed.

Re: Loyalty

Reply #7 –
Quote from: JonHenry – on
Are we just looking at the examples of when they were loyal?

I think you could make a case for Simpson and Kreuzer as the fabric of the club but Murphy and Gibbs?

Gibbs admitted himself this year that he hasn't always been that driven and was happy just playing AFL.

The club must always come first second and third, exactly what happened at the Bulldogs and every other successful club in the history of the game.

Simpson is our Bob Murphy.
You couldn't imagine him in anything other than Navy Blue

Re: Loyalty

Reply #8 –
Interesting post Lods.

I've stuck fat with this club for close to 50 years.  I'd hate to think how much I have invested emotionally in this club.

Then we have parasites like Henderson and Yarran not even trying for a year, and a bloke like Gibbs coming out and admitting that for the greater part of his career he was happy just playing AFL.  Then there are the players sulking around pretending to put in when we all know they aren't.

If some of the players hurt as much as we do they might see beyond the dollars and see that this club and its success or otherwise means a damn lot to some of us out there, so if you want to p!ss off and chase money and "success" at say Norf, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.


DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: Loyalty

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Professer E – on
Interesting post Lods.

I've stuck fat with this club for close to 50 years.  I'd hate to think how much I have invested emotionally in this club.

Then we have parasites like Henderson and Yarran not even trying for a year, and a bloke like Gibbs coming out and admitting that for the greater part of his career he was happy just playing AFL.  Then there are the players sulking around pretending to put in when we all know they aren't.

If some of the players hurt as much as we do they might see beyond the dollars and see that this club and its success or otherwise means a damn lot to some of us out there, so if you want to p!ss off and chase money and "success" at say Norf, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

Great post.
Some of those efforts in 2015 disrespected the club and jumper

Re: Loyalty

Reply #10 –
Quote from: Professer E – on
Interesting post Lods.

I've stuck fat with this club for close to 50 years.  I'd hate to think how much I have invested emotionally in this club.

Then we have parasites like Henderson and Yarran not even trying for a year, and a bloke like Gibbs coming out and admitting that for the greater part of his career he was happy just playing AFL.  Then there are the players sulking around pretending to put in when we all know they aren't.

If some of the players hurt as much as we do they might see beyond the dollars and see that this club and its success or otherwise means a damn lot to some of us out there, so if you want to p!ss off and chase money and "success" at say Norf, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
Well said Proff
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: Loyalty

Reply #12 –
I think that for plenty of players footy is their job, they don't really care where they play.

There is probably a difference as well when the club decides that a player is to go vs a player telling the club they don't want to be there

Loyalty is mainly a notion for fans and older ones at that as AFL becomes more about the $$ than anything else.

Re: Loyalty

Reply #13 –
Quote from: dodge – on
I think that for plenty of players footy is their job, they don't really care where they play.

There is probably a difference as well when the club decides that a player is to go vs a player telling the club they don't want to be there

Loyalty is mainly a notion for fans and older ones at that as AFL becomes more about the $$ than anything else.

Loyalty works when the relationship is perceived, by both parties, to be in the best interests of both parties. When that perception fades then so does loyalty.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Loyalty

Reply #14 –
Quote from: dodge – on
I think that for plenty of players footy is their job, they don't really care where they play.

There is probably a difference as well when the club decides that a player is to go vs a player telling the club they don't want to be there

Loyalty is mainly a notion for fans and older ones at that as AFL becomes more about the $$ than anything else.

I think, when trying to understand this thought process the best way to do it, is to look at it in the context of your regular worker.

Some people, have a lot of pride in themselves, and will flourish in any environment because they want to prove their worth but the second they find a better offer they walk out the door (this sounds too familiar).

Some people, will become stale in the same environment for too long because they are not developed as people.  The second you start to challenge them to grow as workers be it, a change in role, more responsibility, or even just understanding how they fit into the bigger picture of achievement, it can reinvigorate them as workers.  (This again sounds too familiar).

Others no matter what you do for them, see it as a pay packet, will put in the minimum requirement and move on.  (This might apply to a few at our club across the journey.  Hopefully we are weeding out the last of them). 

Apply that context to footy players, and then you have an accurate picture of where our football club has really failed over the last 15 years.

This is why we need to get better at developing people.

This is why we need to get better at treating people fairly and not creating scapegoats here there and everywhere as it breeds resentment.

This is why we need to get better at setting standards.

I know for a while there proffesionally, I was being disrespected for my contribution, and wasnt encouraged to learn, train and gain new skills.  My performance suffered accordingly.  Back to the minimum effort required to get the job done.

That changed with a shift in management initiative, and it can stem from something small.  I.e. I was sent on a one week course in something semi relevant to my job, but would improve my employment prospect = an increase in productivity, commitment to the cause, and putting in additional hours without being asked for it, and the only thing that shifted was how my employer made me feel about working for them.

If we can zero in on this aspect of the club and get that going well, we will start to improve in ways we hadnt even considered.

For the record, Bolton (to a lesser extent Steven Trigg) looks to be the people who understand the above and are working on fixing it.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson