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Topic: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity? (Read 15142 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #15 –
We need to agree on a definition of "race" before we can start talking about "racism".

However, having said that, I don't like to hear discriminatory or condescending remarks being made about other groupings of people for just being a member of that grouping or ascribing faults or negative characteristics based on that - except supporters of certain other AFL clubs of course.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #16 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
We need to agree on a definition of "race" before we can start talking about "racism".

Well of course the accepted understanding of the term racism doesn't just cover race, that is being too literal. I think we have discussed this on the forum once before and playing the devils advocate I raised that very question.

Do we need a term other than racism to describe these other acts or perceptions?

Is the term racism too broadly applied?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #17 –
Quote from: LP – on
I have seen too many individuals labeled racist or discriminatory for purposes of political or personal gain that I will forever remain heavily skeptical. I'm especially skeptical when I see assertions of racism used to influence the arts or political commentary, it goes against free speech.

There is a significant difference between GTC's obviously light-hearted comments and the likes of Pauline Hanson, people are more than capable discerning that difference and more often than not they do so or fail to do so by choice.

Who are we protecting, what are we protecting them from, and how does it help?

Its really simple LP.

The litmus test, on any argument to do with racism, is how this would make someone feel about the comment if it was the first time they had heard it?

Mine is straight to anger, but over the years I have been conditioned to accept this and find that the next generation should not be put through as much.  Not because I should, or because its right, but due to it being common place.

Thats not a reason for this stuff to continue.  It was once common for people to own slaves.  It was also once common for men to beat their wives.  Likewise, sometimes things that are uncommon should become more common.  I.e. Women getting equal treatment.

Calling someone a spastic or a retard is out.
Calling someone a spear chucker is out.
Using a racial group as the butt of a joke to insinuate that "we are better than you" based purely on ethnic group is out even if that is a "harmless joke".

Perhaps I am a little more sensitive to this because a lot of people from my ethnic background at my demographic have started raising families of their own, and my wife and I are starting that discussion/attempt ourselves, and Ive decided that "the standard I walk past is the standard Im willing to accept" and this means a world, where my little ones wont be made fun of because they are Greek/Portuguese Australians(when we are fortunate to have our own).

GIC only meant it to be some light hearted fun, but after I called him out on it, you chimed in with your own comment, and I only see further comments as an attempt to backpedal somewhat.

If you dont like the term racism, how does casual bigotry sound instead?? Label changed, same outcome.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #18 –
I thought the birthplace of humanity was another planet about 14.6 light years away?  ;)
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #19 –
There needs to be a relationship in place between the joker and the person/audience where the audience, for whatever reason, feels secure that the jokes are genuinely intended for light amusement and not as a slur. Context and relationship are very important. A stand up comic can get away with jokes that none of us ever could for this very reason.

It's part of the complexity of humanity that the same joke, can be seen as funny or racist, depending on the factors above. That's not hypocrisy, that's not double standards.

Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #20 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
A stand up comic can get away with jokes that none of us ever could for this very reason.

Yet it's clear that comedians get hauled over the coals on a regular basis for this very issue despite the clear relationship that exists! I suppose you could argue that when you take possession of the ticket you a contract to perceive the performance in a very specific way! Where do we draw the line?

Quote from: PaulP – on
It's part of the complexity of humanity that the same joke, can be seen as funny or racist, depending on the factors above. That's not hypocrisy, that's not double standards.

I agree, but doesn't "seen" by definition imply ambiguity?

Those who "see" like those who "behold" make assumptions about the observations of others.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"
 

Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #21 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
We need to agree on a definition of "race" before we can start talking about "racism.
All we need is the dictionary definition.  This is from the online OED:
Quote
Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics.
‘people of all races, colours, and creeds’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.1mass noun The fact or condition of belonging to a racial division or group; the qualities or characteristics associated with this.
Example sentences
1.2 A group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group.
‘we Scots were a bloodthirsty race then’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.3 A group or set of people or things with a common feature or features.
‘the upper classes thought of themselves as a race apart’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.4Biology A population within a species that is distinct in some way, especially a subspecies.
‘people have killed so many tigers that two races are probably extinct’
More example sentences
1.5 (in non-technical use) each of the major divisions of living creatures.
‘a member of the human race’
‘the race of birds’
More example sentences
1.6literary A group of people descended from a common ancestor.
‘a prince of the race of Solomon’
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.7archaic mass noun Ancestry.
‘two coursers of ethereal race’
In other words, both Greeks and Muslims can be described as races for the purposes of defining racism.  It isn't limited to Caucasians or Asians, for example.

In fact, in modern times, the idea of humans being divided into genetically discrete races is seen increasingly as an unfortunate mistake which has in fact led to racism.  As the ads for Ancestry.com demonstrate, our DNA is usually a mix of influences.  I remember seeing US a talk show that had a white supremacist on it and he agreed to a DNA test.  He had no fear because he was as white as white can be.  Yet the test showed he had a considerable African heritage and he was devastated.  Subsequently, he was shunned by other white supremacists :D

Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #22 –
Quote from: LP – on
Yet it's clear that comedians get hauled over the coals on a regular basis for this very issue despite the clear relationship that exists! I suppose you could argue that when you take possession of the ticket you a contract to perceive the performance in a very specific way! Where do we draw the line?

I agree, but doesn't "seen" by definition imply ambiguity?

Those who "see" like those who "behold" make assumptions about the observations of others.

I'm not sure where you draw the line. In the case of a public performance like a comedy show, I guess if you know the comedian has form, you don't buy a ticket, or just check your phone and zone out when they get to the bits you don't like. I'm not sure.

If it's a one to one situation, just make sure you know the person very well, and if you stuff up, apologise and don't do it again, and pray they forgive you. All easier said then done.

Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #23 –
@Mav, does that by definition make a term like "Sexism" redundant because it can be replaced with "Racism"?

Isn't gender an equally valid feature or identity?

What about LGBTI, etc., etc., are they a unique and shared collective quality or identity?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #24 –
Quote from: LP – on
Do you find any irony in the condemnation of the claims made in Flores, contrasted to the positive commentary around Rising Star and the subsequent Lesedi finds. There seems to be a lot of heavy politicisation of this science, subjectively I see more than I have noticed in other disciplines.

Do you think the race to publish is damaging the research, sensational claims now seem to be a requirement of publication?

After 40 years in the field, I'm still amazed at how some folk fight against new discoveries that cast doubt on their work or stated position.  We know so little about the past that it is inevitable that theories will be displaced/replaced as new discoveries are made.

The Flores 'hobbits' were caught up in a particularly nasty debate fuelled in part by the megalomania of the head of Indonesian archaeology.  Unfortunately, one of the principals of the team passed away before the significance of the finds was confirmed ... until the next discovery!

Publish or perish does play a role but peer review should iron out the more outrageous articles.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #25 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Publish or perish does play a role but peer review should iron out the more outrageous articles.

It worries me that so many articles are now published before peer review is completed.

I feel this is a trap that the scientific community is falling into, this new trend in regard to dubious politically focused publications is also a worry. The media assume a publication is a publication, and like opinions they are all equal, when we know they are clearly not!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #26 –
Quote from: LP – on
@Mav, does that by definition make a term like "Sexism" redundant because it can be replaced with "Racism"?

Isn't gender an equally valid feature or identity?

What about LGBTI, etc., etc., are they unique and shared collective quality or identity?
Usually, the general gives way to the specific, so sexism would be used. 

In legislation, words are usually defined specifically, so such arguments are avoided.  But English is an unregulated language, so ultimately it's how words are used which counts rather than existing dictionary definitions.  "Gay" used to mean happy and lively, but now you would rarely use it in that sense when referring to a person.

Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #27 –
Is our generation wrecking fun?

I fear we are creating a society that walks all day on eggshells in misery and contempt because of the foibles of language, and I worry it will lead to no good!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #28 –
Quote from: LP – on
Is our generation wrecking fun?

I fear we are creating a society that walks all day on eggshells in misery and contempt because of the foibles of language, and I worry it will lead to no good!

I don't believe this is the case.

Re: Was Greece the birthplace of humanity?

Reply #29 –
Quote from: LP – on
Is our generation wrecking fun?

I fear we are creating a society that walks all day on eggshells in misery and contempt because of the foibles of language, and I worry it will lead to no good!

I think fun has a price on it in todays society....more pressures lead to less fun and it becomes a commodity....