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Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #135 –
Quote from: LP – on
I think it's highly unlikely that the vote will be as definitive as you think, in the political circles the scuttlebutt is that it's going to be line-ball!

In the political circles, they mix with political types. Have the been polling their individual electorates? Or just their mates?
I suspect the largely rich white folk who are in politics would be very split on how to vote.
However, there are not many average citizens that i know who would NOT even entertain the thought of a no vote. These are the same people that politicians overlook.

I can honestly say that i have not met one single person who has said they are 'no' voters. Nobody in my (extended) family, no matter if they be 18 (cousin) or 80 (grandfather) or anywhere inbetween are voting no. Nor any of my circle of friends, colleagues or acquaintances.
However, all throughout facebook and the like there are countless yes voters. Rainbow flags are up in business windows, and even some houses.

As i said, i cannot predict what the northern states are going to do, but unless there is a hidden state of no-voters out there i can't understand how it would even come close to 50-50

EDIT: Fixed up an important omission.
 

Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #136 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
In the political circles, they mix with political types. Have the been polling their individual electorates? Or just their mates?
I suspect the largely rich white folk who are in politics would be very split on who to vote.
However, there are not many average citizens that i know who would even entertain the thought of a no vote. These are the same people that politicians overlook.

I can honestly say that i have not met one single person who has said they are 'no' voters. Nobody in my (extended) family, no matter if they be 18 (cousin) or 80 (grandfather) or anywhere inbetween are voting no. Nor any of my circle of friends, colleagues or acquaintances.
However, all throughout facebook and the like there are countless yes voters. Rainbow flags are up in business windows, and even some houses.

As i said, i cannot predict what the northern states are going to do, but unless there is a hidden state of no-voters out there i can't understand how it would even come close to 50-50

My experience is similar to yours Kruddler although one Christian friend is probably going to tick the 'no' box.

I suspect that many undecided folk won't bother to respond and there will be a significant apathetic bloc who simply won't bother.  I can't see that bolstering the 'no' vote and the result should reflect the opinion polls.  And that raises the question of why the government is wasting $122M on another opinion poll?
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #137 –
I have only had conversations with the more fundamental Christians about this.  They are definitely on the no side.  The Pentecostal/fundamental church is pretty big (eg some get 8k plus through their doors on a weekend) My facebook feeds suggests that the more progressive Christians will vote yes.  Pretty much all non-church people my age seem to be yes.

My gut feeling is that the vote will be close.  The conservative congregations will have this thrown at them every week, the yes side doesn't quite have the same captive audience.

What disappoints me is that that when a no vote is suggested, suddenly that person is a bigot, homophobic and full of hate.  They generally aren't, they just don't see marriage as a same sex thing, or see homosexuality as a moral issue, which they are against.  Surely their view is just as valid as any other.

I also detest how some of the 'no' vote attacks advocates of SSM in a personal and derogatory way.

I find it odd that the many parts of the church argues for a whole range exemptions from discrimination, which seems to be to go totally against Jesus' teaching.

It would be interesting to know how many surveys were sent back before any real campaigning started.  The whole survey is resulting in horrible division within the country and we would have been much better off if the politicians had the guts to make a decision.  Another thing we can blame Howard and his generally bad government for (although the public discourse when he changed the marriage act was basically non-existent from memory).  One day it would be great if politicians governed for the country, not their party!

Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #138 –
Quote from: DJC – on
My experience is similar to yours Kruddler although one Christian friend is probably going to tick the 'no' box.
Quote from: kruddler – on
I can honestly say that i have not met one single person who has said they are 'no' voters.

In my opinion many conservative or religious types will publicly state "yes" but privately vote "no", they want the path of least confrontation.

As for the younger kids, they are "The Survivor" generation, they want what they want.

Quote from: kruddler – on
I suspect the largely rich white folk who are in politics would be very split on how to vote.

I think it's a little ironic for you to apply those stereotypes, I suspect that is exactly what Abbott's right leaning conservatives want you to do very publicly!

Regardless I'm happy to be proven wrong!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #139 –
Quote from: LP – on
I think it's a little ironic for you to apply those stereotypes, I suspect that is exactly what Abbott's right leaning conservatives want you to do very publicly!

Regardless I'm happy to be proven wrong!

Well my reason for doing so is because they would be the type of people (like Abbott) that I have very little dealings with personally. More traditionalists who are set in their ways.
As i said, almost all of the people i deal with, family, friends and otherwise are very publicly yes voters and have very little in common with Abbott and co. Those who you could draw a tenuous link to them, are still Yes voters.

It might be worth noting that, at least in my experiences, religion is becoming less a part of younger peoples lives nowadays. That is, less religious people around now than say 20-30 years ago. I think the recent census backs that up. Considering the majority of 'no' voters seem to fall into that category too, so the media seems to suggest, it also backs up my theory.

FWIW, i'm an atheist. I am happy for people to live their lives however they want both in terms of religious views and who they want to marry. I am also happy for them to voice their opposing view on both matters despite not agreeing with it.

Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #140 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Well my reason for doing so is because they would be the type of people (like Abbott) that I have very little dealings with personally. More traditionalists who are set in their ways.

What about Waleed Aly, how will he vote, is he your traditionalist?

Does age have anything to do with it?

27% of the population are over 55, almost 50% are over 40.

Quote from: kruddler – on
It might be worth noting that, at least in my experiences, religion is becoming less a part of younger peoples lives nowadays. That is, less religious people around now than say 20-30 years ago. I think the recent census backs that up.

Only 30% of the census population stated no religion.

I can see you feel optimistic on this issue, but history and analysis suggest this issue is even less clear than proposed euthanasia bills which are regularly a 60/40 debate!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #141 –
Remember when everyone thought that Donald Trump would never be president?

Guess again everyone.

FYI I know a lot of no voters and yes voters, and most of the no voters have scattergun arguments.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #142 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
FYI I know a lot of no voters and yes voters, and most of the no voters have scattergun arguments.

As you rightly point out, so did Donald Trump and his supporters! :o

I see Rodney Rude is out there supporting the "Yes" vote. Yet his comedy is crudely and profitably aimed at those who think "prejudice" and "poofters" are a subject of legitimate derision and humor!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #143 –
Irrespective of what I think of those arguments they're genuinely concerned about them and the implications of a yes vote.

Simply put. This isn't a cut and dried outcome as people think. The no voters like the trump voters have no profile.  They can't be counted because they wouldn't be spruiker for that outcome but their entire family will likely follow suit.  In my immediate sample of extended family,  (siblings, in-laws and grandparents) the yes vote only will get 3 or 4 whilst no will get 7 or 8.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #144 –
Quote from: LP – on
What about Waleed Aly, how will he vote, is he your traditionalist?

Does age have anything to do with it?

27% of the population are over 55, almost 50% are over 40.

Only 30% of the census population stated no religion.

I can see you feel optimistic on this issue, but history and analysis suggest this issue is even less clear than proposed euthanasia bills which are regularly a 60/40 debate!

Don't watch the project, never have. Couldn't care less about it or anyone on it. Of course there will be exceptions to any argument, but as i stated majority of no voters would be older and/or religious types.

Ah well, time will tell.

Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #145 –
I'd be curious to know what would happen if the roles were reversed. If the same sex mob were the majority, and the heterosexual minority were not allowed to marry, and they used exactly the same arguments against us.

Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #146 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I'd be curious to know what would happen if the roles were reversed. If the same sex mob were the majority, and the heterosexual minority were not allowed to marry, and they used exactly the same arguments against us.

Some may even welcome those arguments! Ooops, sorry, 1970s un PC joke......... ::)
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #147 –
I have a question...

On the surface for anyone immature enough to not look at what is being asked it will be dismissed.
But for any that suggest this is a human rights issue and therefore no one has any rights to say no or pass judgment.
I ask this..

Should incestuous marriage be allowed?
I mean 2 consenting adults who are in love with each other... Currently they would face jail time.
But the reason they would  face jail time is that others are passing judgment over their love.

Now I don't have an issue with same sex marriage and I do have an issue with incestuous relationships, but that is my personal opinion and it is an opinion that I do openly pass, but isn't that essentially a judgment based on my own  moral compass on what I think is acceptable and what is not?

Now this isn't scare monger tactics either... I don't for one second think this is the next item on the agenda. I don't think that allowing those in same sex relationships to marry will see a string of incestuous relationships. In short I 100% believe there is NO CORRELATION between the two. That is not what I am saying at all.

I am asking, why is it okay that we are allowed to have an opinion that one love is okay and one is not? Are we not all then guilty of projecting our own moral compasses onto others?

In essence if no one has the RIGHT to an opinion formed from their own judgement on the relationship between 2 consenting adults, does that not include other non traditional relationships?

Why is it okay to pass one judgment, but not the other?

The thing is, it probably isn't politically correct to pass a judgment, but it is human.
Most humans in Australia are now comfortable with the thought of same sex marriage I believe and as such that is how they will vote. However there are others that for various reasons believe that the traditional unity is one between man & women and I think they are entitled to that view.

I said 1-2 weeks ago that the reason I won't vote yes, is that I believe the Yes campaign is run with a mob bullying mentality and it has got worse. The attacks on those wanting to express their own beliefs in a non-harassing open way, by those afraid of people having a different view actually makes me detest the campaign. This by the way for a non-binding, non-mandatory opinion poll.

Whilst I am in the "I support, but won't vote" camp at the moment. I can openly state that this campaign continues to draw me away from voting, not bringing me closer.

There was an incident at Sydney University this week, that on the information I have been able to find, appears to be another example of this.
A couple of people exercising their right to inform others they do have a right to make their own decision in a vote.
They are surrounded by approximately 200 people who start ripping up their banners, apparently suggest they would like to stomp on their heads, throw glitter and other items at them. The police step in and when they pull away one of the aggressors the mob  mentality starts a chant of "let him go" "let him go"... Would it be okay if a group of a few hundred No voters, started to get aggressive with Yes Voters campaigning?

I don't see the marriage rights as a fundamental issue in Australia or anywhere. I think they should have the right to marry, but it isn't something I feel strongly on. I also think it will happen. This year, next year, the year after... It will happen.

I feel very strongly though about everyone having the right to free speech, free thought and not being bullied by mobs as I have said before.

And above I have used a fairly extreme example to show that all of us have some moral guide that tells us what we do find acceptable in society and what we don't.

And the way to change that is by discussion, by education, by legislation.

In Canberra a lady fired a worker for stating on their Facebook profile that it is "Okay to vote no"
After many posted supporting and against her post, she added a number of edits suggesting that it wasn't just because the person wrote that and it wasn't actually an employee, but a contractor not renewed example..
Almost like she had legal advise that told her you cannot sack someone for their political beliefs.....  ::)

Hang on... Not only is her employee entitled to believe that it is okay for people to say no, her employee is entitled themselves to vote that way.

Just imagine for 1 second that employers who were against same sex marriage started firing employees who stated it was okay to vote YES. They would (quite rightly) be ridiculed for attacking someone's right to vote as their beliefs dictate.

This campaign has brought out a really ugly bigoted side of Australia and it is not the side one might have expected when this first began (in my opinion anyway).
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #148 –
@MIO...

Been waiting for that argument to be raised.

I wouldn't have chosen incest exactly, perhaps multiple wives. I noticed you later included the term adult in there....that crosses off another alternative. All of which are 'right' and 'wrong' depending, basically, on which country you grew up in.

Its a valid argument on each individual basis. Like you said though, it should not be used as scaremongering tactics because one does not lead to the other.

In regards to the human rights issue...
In this country what is being proposed is an extension of what is currently legal.
All other connotations are not.

I think that is the major difference.

In other countries it might be different, but we have no say in that.

Re: Father's Day ad pulled!

Reply #149 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I'd be curious to know what would happen if the roles were reversed. If the same sex mob were the majority, and the heterosexual minority were not allowed to marry, and they used exactly the same arguments against us.

Never have been married, have no plans to be married, girl was married and divorced before we met.

It's all an expensive charade, and a hundreds of millions of dollars are being wasted on a meaningless piece of paper.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"