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Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #615 –
If 90% of what we know fits a given model isn’t it a good place to start by trying to incorporate what you don’t understand into that model ?
Ultimately if it doesn’t fit, it won’t and a new model will be needed that allows for what we observe...
We can observe things that we can’t see directly, we can see how they interact with other things, to say that they don’t exist is just denialism.
Science is saying, “I see what you’re doing so I know that you’re there, I just need to find a way to see you”
Let’s go BIG !

Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #616 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
No, there's no mistake. There's lots of speculation, there's lots of hypothesizing, lots of theorizing, lots of calculations, but not anything of substance. Just a big merry go round of nothingness. The only reason they speculate on things that cannot be seen or measured or known in any way is that they insist that gravity is the only way to explain mathematical anomalies, and must therefore get things to fit a pre existing theory. Why else would you go searching for something completely out of thin air ? Why make life enormously complicated for yourself, why tie yourself in knots, unless you have a theory or model to maintain ?

Sorry PaulP that is gibberish.

If you want to discuss it discuss it and I'm happy to, we can talk about the data, how it's captured and mapped, what 8σ means, the chance a measurement is wrong.

But I won't do this in a New Age framework, those people have already done enough damage discouraging vaccinations with pseudo-scientific claims of infant harm. Many of those New Age opinions are not worth pissing on!

If you want New Age join a forum where they clap dead fish to repair ACLs, go see if it can help Doc, at this stage I'm happy to try anything!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #617 –
My sister has a phd in theoretical physics, dad has one in something to do with physical chemistry (still not sure what that is!).  Dinner time got boring, so sorry LP and Paul, going back to the thread!

So SSM has been in for 12 months with relatively few SS couples tying the knot (~5% - may be spurious stats).

There is now a greater push re binary and non binary genders, the Tassie stuff about leaving gender off birth certificates, still strong debate about Safe Schools and anti LGBTQI discrimination (teachers and students) in religious schools.

These are not related to marriage, but seem to hold some strength in the non-hetero world.  Couple of questions:

1) Have these gathered strength as they are the next thing on the list
2) What % of the population are we talking about that aren't hetero.

They are sort of curiosities of mine - haven't really formed views how well society is progressing with the polarising opinion that is offered on both sides of the debate.

Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #618 –
I just think that unless invited in by consenting adults we should stay the hell away from other people’s bedrooms.
Some gay people have gotten married and the sun still comes up each morning... who woulda thunk that ?
Let’s go BIG !

Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #619 –
Quote from: northernblue – on
If 90% of what we know fits a given model isn’t it a good place to start by trying to incorporate what you don’t understand into that model ?
Ultimately if it doesn’t fit, it won’t and a new model will be needed that allows for what we observe...
We can observe things that we can’t see directly, we can see how they interact with other things, to say that they don’t exist is just denialism.
Science is saying, “I see what you’re doing so I know that you’re there, I just need to find a way to see you”

Science can say whatever it likes. Despite the number of decades that have passed, the number of scientists, computers, calculations etc., there has in fact been very little progress made in the discovery of dark matter and energy - a bit of lensing here, some Hubble something or other there, a Bullet Cluster somewhere else, there's very little to go on. A whole lot of filler, and very little meat.

You may think it's just a matter of time, and such discoveries are a historical inevitability, and maybe it is, but some of us aren't convinced by what amounts to shadows, inferred existence and the like.

Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #620 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Science can say whatever it likes. Despite the number of decades that have passed, the number of scientists, computers, calculations etc., there has in fact been very little progress made in the discovery of dark matter and energy - a bit of lensing here, some Hubble something or other there, a Bullet Cluster somewhere else, there's very little to go on. A whole lot of filler, and very little meat.

You may think it's just a matter of time, and such discoveries are a historical inevitability, and maybe it is, but some of us aren't convinced by what amounts to shadows, inferred existence and the like.

Yet there is an infinite amount of evidence for dark matter or dark energy compared to an angel, telepathy maybe even Sheldrake by your measures! :o

If you want to discuss something subject to foibles of human perception, try some time, relative to dark energy and dark matter time is completely vacuous.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #621 –
Quote from: dodge – on
My sister has a phd in theoretical physics, dad has one in something to do with physical chemistry (still not sure what that is!).  Dinner time got boring, so sorry LP and Paul, going back to the thread!

So SSM has been in for 12 months with relatively few SS couples tying the knot (~5% - may be spurious stats).

There is now a greater push re binary and non binary genders, the Tassie stuff about leaving gender off birth certificates, still strong debate about Safe Schools and anti LGBTQI discrimination (teachers and students) in religious schools.

These are not related to marriage, but seem to hold some strength in the non-hetero world.  Couple of questions:

1) Have these gathered strength as they are the next thing on the list
2) What % of the population are we talking about that aren't hetero.

They are sort of curiosities of mine - haven't really formed views how well society is progressing with the polarising opinion that is offered on both sides of the debate.

Sorry Dodge, but I think you are correct, the saying the thin edge of the wedge says more about human nature than any conspiracy theory. But I think we see a general trend now due to the nature of our parliament, that minorities opportunistically hold a disproportionate amount of power. Regardless of whether we agree or disagree, it seems uncomfortable to have such a small minority dictate terms to the vast majority. So I expect we will see a major increase in this behaviour, they will feed while the feeding is good, wasting our taxes for pieces of paper while friends and relatives die from cancer or MND, but at least they die with a nice certificate not matter how they label themselves!

Sorry to NM, but the Facebook vitriol and angst is still the same today as it was before, the certificate hasn't cured anybody. Did anybody really think a piece of trivial paper would make a difference?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #622 –
Quote from: LP – on
Yet there is an infinite amount of evidence for dark matter or dark energy compared to an angel, telepathy maybe even Sheldrake by your measures! :o

...................

There is no direct evidence for dark matter or energy.

If you have a model or theory that looks to explain things in terms of matter, gravity and energy, and you specifically go looking for these things because that's what the model tells you, don't you think you will eventually find them, or if you can't find them, then insist they exist ? If you're not looking for anything else, how can you find it ?

In 3D graphics, if you want to show a shadow of tree branches on a wall, you can use a 3D model of a tree with a light behind it, or if you don't have a 3D model handy, you can use what is known as a gel, or a light gel. This is simply a 2d cutout of a tree, placed in front of the camera, with solid and transparent elements as required. When you generate your image, the viewer has no way of knowing whether the shadow is generated by a 3D tree, a gel, a neat assemblage of disconnected twigs, or something else.

In viewing dark matter and energy, I have been told repeatedly that we are seeing the effects of these elements (the shadow) not the thing itself. How do we know that it's actually dark matter ? How do we know that there isn't a gel version of dark matter that causes the effects ? Why, after decades of frankly fruitless research, do we not look at some other theories ?

Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #623 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Why, after decades of frankly fruitless research, do we not look at some other theories ?

Firstly, they are not fruitless, you deeming them fruitless because you do not agree or do not understand is not creating a fact, your have however created a Trumpism.

Secondly, science explores many things, only the ones of substance gain traction, the scientific method determines how you conduct that exploration and discards the hypothesis that fail to match observation.

So your apparent love of MOND is truly fruitless, that's flogging a dead horse, but we don't ban people from investigating it as they have freedom to choose.

You see that the difference between faith and science, in science once your wrong it's over, there is no forgiveness in the scientific method you don't get a second chance if your theory or hypothesis doesn't fit reality. But we won't stake you out for being wrong, we'll just call it cute!

Your correlation of revisions to observations or data with some fudging of the books is not right, the theories or hypothesis that stand the test of that revision are the ones and the only ones that survive corrections and revisions, MOND didn't!

Unlike a religion we can't use divine intervention to cover a boo boo, you know like the Spanish Inquisition, science has no father confessor offering forgiveness for a monumental feck up!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #624 –
I say they're fruitless because the amount of money, time and energy expended has yielded very little. If there was something worth reporting, it would be common knowledge, and not arid technical mumbo jumbo that appears in places intended for cosmo wonks or physicists.

As for the rest of your post, you have I assume never read Thomas Kuhn, or else you wouldn't be making such outlandish statements. Science is no more interested in truth than any other institution. The reason why science won't meaningfully explore any other options is that there is too much invested in, and too much riding on, the current theories. The Titanic doesn't change course easily. Neither, it seems, do certain egos.

Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #625 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I say they're fruitless because the amount of money, time and energy expended has yielded very little. If there was something worth reporting, it would be common knowledge, and not arid technical mumbo jumbo that appears in places intended for cosmo wonks or physicists.

Your very defensive, what is wrong?

It is common knowledge, like the large open public access Gaia project, the LHC or the SKA, but you won't find a fish slapper writing about them! Denial doesn't make it hidden, that is just a form of selective ignorance.

Quote from: PaulP – on
As for the rest of your post, you have I assume never read Thomas Kuhn, or else you wouldn't be making such outlandish statements. Science is no more interested in truth than any other institution. The reason why science won't meaningfully explore any other options is that there is too much invested in, and too much riding on, the current theories. The Titanic doesn't change course easily. Neither, it seems, do certain egos.

Kuhn was the worst kind of tinfoil central, for profit tinfoil, and it's not even clear that he believed his own mantra which is a huge first warning sign. Yet you seem happy to accept opinion when it's a generalisation offered for profit, like most New Age texts.

Arxiv is free, as is PLOS, ResearchGate and any number of resources of Open Access journals if you care to do due diligence! ;) Further most major science projects make their data freely available, there is nothing hiding, it isn't hidden in vaults like the Vatican. While you choose to ignore all the freely available data, apparently if it is free for you to peruse and use then it's not really evidence, you want it in plain language and when you get it that way you ask for the evidence in the best possible Trump way. Maybe that says more about you PaulP, that I find very disappointing!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #626 –
You try the same shtick on kruddler, mbb and others. Lots of waffle, little substance. I will ask you again. One very simple question - where is the direct evidence for dark energy and dark matter ? Not implied, not inferred, direct.

Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #627 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
You try the same shtick on kruddler, mbb and others. Lots of waffle, little substance. I will ask you again. One very simple question - where is the direct evidence for dark energy and dark matter ? Not implied, not inferred, direct.
Ahh, a plea to the cavalry.

You're just becoming defensive because you are out of your depth.

I can infer from your posts that you want visual evidence for something you can't see, plain language must mean a picture, but like the air you breath, the neutrinos streaming through you by the billions per second like you are not even there, the electrons powering your forum posts, the positron radiation curing your friends and relatives, your own consciousness and the perception of time as it passes, all are detected and measured indirectly in some degree it seems! You cannot show me a picture, yet they leave a trace, an effect or an influence like Becquerel's film! ;)

If you hate the cosmological proofs, perhaps you can take a look at LUX, IceCube or SuperCDMS. All operating to narrow the candidate field for whatever dark matter is, no faith or pre-existing belief needed, just a question.

Who knows were this pure research will lead, nobody knows but we won't stop building new knowledge, and we won't have to resort to a mystical solution to sleep easy. Perhaps reality is as Dawkins states, as knowledge grows God shrinks, or perhaps it's the exact opposite!

But no matter what evidence you are presented, I suspect I know what your answer will be to any proof. "Were are the dough-nuts?"
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #628 –
So the answer to my previous question is no ?
 

Re: SSM Plebiscite

Reply #629 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
So the answer to my previous question is no ?

No PaulP, I can and have provide you with more evidence you are likely to need, but you chose ignorance over investigation because you have a lazy bent. You want answers not effort, that is something I cannot help you with.

So do the lazy thing PaulP, have faith PaulP and all will be revealed! ;)
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"