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Topic: Las Vegas Mass Shooting (Read 36590 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Reply #135 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
Again, playing the man not the ball Lods.

I expected better from you.

No
Although I'm not strong on conspiracy stuff.
I've just added to the post...I'm buggered if I know where the truth lies.

By the same token you have to also consider there is a possibility this bloke might be a bit of a whacko rather than a guru...otherwise you're guilty of taking him as being right which is exactly the same issue as taking the official version on face value.

Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Reply #136 –
Quote from: Lods – on
No
Although I'm not strong on conspiracy stuff.
I've just added to the post...I'm buggered if I know where the truth lies.

By the same token you have to also consider there is a possibility this bloke might be a bit of a whacko rather than a guru...otherwise you're guilty of taking him as being right which is exactly the same issue as taking the official version on face value.

And to illustrate your point Lods, Orac (aka Dr David H. Gorski) , whose blog you quoted, is accused by some as being a "vaccine industry front man". So yes, caution is required
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Reply #137 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
And to illustrate your point Lods, Orac (aka Dr David H. Gorski) , whose blog you quoted, is accused by some as being a "vaccine industry front man". So yes, caution is required

Exactly!
(although I'm a pro vaccinator so that makes him a good man in my eyes)

The problem is researching sources and counter sources for their credentials can take an age.

Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Reply #138 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
Again, playing the man not the ball Lods.

I expected better from you.

I know exactly why you post, I didn't answer your post to debate you, to save you or change your mind. I suspect it's too late for you!

But there are kids all over the place that finds these forums and read posts, even amongst our members there are parents like MBB who have kids that might well read the forums as youngsters in the years to come. So it seems right to post to try and prevent them from being indoctrinated by nutters and weirdos!

The posts like those you link to are not funny or entertaining, the conspiracies floated to draw in a just a few extra pennies from a website are neither innocent or benign, they are bait for those incapable or ill-equipped to rationally deal with these sorts of issues, and it can have very real life long consequences for some.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"
 

Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Reply #139 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Exactly!
(although I'm a pro vaccinator so that makes him a good man in my eyes)

The problem is researching sources and counter sources for their credentials can take an age.

In principle and based on my now long ago scientific education, vaccination certainly seems to make a lot of sense in saving lives and preventing suffering. However, the vaccination industry, like many others these days, is very big business and, as we all know, the highest priority of big business is profit. For this reason alone, especially with stuff that's injected directly into human bodies, I have no problem with them being kept under close scrutiny.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Reply #140 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
I have read another report, and I'm not an expert by any means, that claims that some of the firing patterns are consistent with a belt-fed weapon. I have no experience of what that sounds like so I can't comment further.

As someone who has fired belt-fed and magazine-fed automatic weapons, I can confidently say that belt-fed weapons weren't used in Las Vegas.  The bump-stock modification produces a rate of fire that's right up there with fully automatic weapons and that is more than capable of inflicting the carnage in Las Vegas.

Why would you bother going through the onerous process required to acquire fully automatic weapons when a cheap, legal modification gives you close to the same rate of fire?
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Reply #141 –
Quote from: LP – on
I know exactly why you post, I didn't answer your post to debate you, to save you or change your mind. I suspect it's too late for you!

But there are kids all over the place that finds these forums and read posts, even amongst our members there are parents like MBB who have kids that might well read the forums as youngsters in the years to come. So it seems right to post to try and prevent them from being indoctrinated by nutters and weirdos!

The posts like those you link to are not funny or entertaining, the conspiracies floated to draw in a just a few extra pennies from a website are neither innocent or benign, they are bait for those incapable or ill-equipped to rationally deal with these sorts of issues, and it can have very real life long consequences for some.

What an absolute crock of self righteous BS.
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Reply #142 –
Vaccines.. a pet topic.

A very simple equation for any parent that doesn't want to vaccinate their children is to move to a place where there are little or no vaccines.

I think it is dangerous and irresponsible to not vaccinate and whilst any medication of any sort can have side effects, everyone acknowledges that.. If you had 2 countries side by side and one vaccinated and the other didn't, I would not mind guessing which one has the polio/measles etc and which doesn't.

I will raise my kids in the one that doesn't please
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Reply #143 –
Quote from: DJC – on
As someone who has fired belt-fed and magazine-fed automatic weapons, I can confidently say that belt-fed weapons weren't used in Las Vegas.  The bump-stock modification produces a rate of fire that's right up there with fully automatic weapons and that is more than capable of inflicting the carnage in Las Vegas.

Why would you bother going through the onerous process required to acquire fully automatic weapons when a cheap, legal modification gives you close to the same rate of fire?

Thanks DJC. The reason that a belt-fed weapon theory was propagated was not regarding rate of fire but the duration of some of the bursts of fire, which the article claimed were too long in respect of the magazine capacity of a modified rifle. From memory, and I'd have to go back and check, the author claimed to be an ex US marine?
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Reply #144 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
What an absolute crock of self righteous BS.

Quote from: flyboy77 – on
Again, playing the man not the ball Lods Flyboy77.

I expected better from you.

About 90 mins since you posted a reply to Lods, and you've contradicted yourself without even offering anything meaningful, relevant or valid!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Reply #145 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Thanks DJC. The reason that a belt-fed weapon theory was propagated was not regarding rate of fire but the duration of some of the bursts of fire, which the article claimed were too long in respect of the magazine capacity of a modified rifle. From memory, and I'd have to go back and check, the author claimed to be an ex US marine?

That explains it  ;)

100 round magazines are pretty common in the USA, not that I saw any on the weapons photographed in the shooter's room.  There did seem to be several rifles with bipods and I suspect that he was changing rifles rather than changing magazines - that may knock a second or two off resuming fire when a magazine empties.

I read that they found a paper on which the shooter had calculated the trajectory from his position to the ground.  He seems to have been determined to cause as much harm as possible.  As I alluded to previously, it could have been much worse if he had used a more systematic fire plan.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Reply #146 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Thanks DJC. The reason that a belt-fed weapon theory was propagated was not regarding rate of fire but the duration of some of the bursts of fire, which the article claimed were too long in respect of the magazine capacity of a modified rifle. From memory, and I'd have to go back and check, the author claimed to be an ex US marine?

Firstly, they showed some footage of the room, and piles of spent cartridges, there were no visible empty belts or disintegrated belt clips. You'd have one or the other if he had a belt feed weapon.

Secondly, the rate of firing was too low for belt feeds at the calibres being used, those weapons fire at a much higher rate typically 900 to 6000 Rnds per minute.

Thirdly, there were no belt feed weapons shown in the pictures of the room, and there is no evidence of any other shooter elsewhere. I gather that is what your poster is trying to imply, somebody using a fully automatic weapon from another location.

So do we know all the weapons and magazines he had, has all that info has been released?

Regardless, the weapons shown can be fitted with 100 round circular clips, at 7 rounds a second he can fire for 15s straight if the weapon survives, and while I haven't gone back and watched the unbroken footage I don't recall any bursts coming close to 15s in duration. 7 Rnds a second would be the firing rate of some of those weapons fully modified to auto, others would be slower, genuine automatic weapons fire at 15 Rnds a second or higher. You wouldn't even hear the individual shots, just a continuous burst!

I'm not sure a US$30 Bump Stock kit gives you anywhere near 7 rounds a second, 3 or 4 sustained probably, but it certainly gives you more than you can possibly fire manually out of a 100 round clip.

It's tiring firing a large clip continuously, the guy was no spring chicken, the weapons are not designed to be used that way, they recoil, kick and throw. Much of the footage seems to indicate short bursts of just a few seconds. As DJC mentions, photos of the scenes showed tripods, but even on these the weapons shown are not easily stabilised.

To change the clip I'd give him 5s under duress, I think he'd have to stop and look at what he was doing under the mechanism, and he'd be looking over his shoulder or on the video screens at the same time. You do not setup video surveillance and not look at it occasionally. But if he was cool, calm and rehearsed then as Prof E stated those taped together flat clips shown in some of the pics could be flipped in as little as 2s and typically hold about 20 to 30 Rnds each. At Bump Stock firing rates that gives him 6s to 8s of firing from a flat clip which seems to be equated by the footage I've seen on the news, which according to some has obviously been edited for nefarious purposes! ::)

We do not know what charge he was using in the ammunition, at 350m and firing down he doesn't need a big charge. If he put a full grain ammunition in a 100 round clip and fired continuously some of those weapons would have failed. I gather the fire alarms going off were probably from him dropping one of the discharged weapons on the a carpet causing a fire, or perhaps the curtains smoldering, but I didn't notice anything in the pictures I've seen. The barrels would get far hotter than the casings, but I can imagine the curtain near a broken windows being exposed to hot exhaust gases. Most of any smoke from the discharge of the weapons probably went out the window with the rounds. We do not know why two windows are smashed, although it's clear only one person was in the room as there was no other way out. Possibly a panicked attempt to clear smoke, possibly following a preferred target around the corner, perhaps somebody was firing back at him. I'm a little bit surprised being America that the face of that hotel doesn't look like a colander! :o
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Reply #147 –
@ DJC/LP
A lot of information to be analysed and interpreted there and I doubt whether all relevant data is in the public domain as yet. We'll just have to wait and see whatever eventual official report is made available.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: Las Vegas Mass Shooting

Reply #148 –
None of the big government conspiracy theories are real.
If they were Donald Trump would have tweeted about them by now ;D