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Re: Reset Rants

Reply #345 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
See my point is that I want an explanation of what bridge everyone else seems to have been looking for.

There was no bridge.

We may not have got to the bridge yet. But to not bother looking for it, we are potentially doing ourselves an incredible injustice.

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #346 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
We may not have got to the bridge yet. But to not bother looking for it, we are potentially doing ourselves an incredible injustice.

So you're saying instead of building a bridge we should see if someone has built one for us to use??

Let's face it, the club has decided that they're building a bridge and whilst they're doing the foundation work they are having a few issues. 

It might not be on time it might be expensive but they are intending to build a bridge a d don't seem worried about everyone who's telling them they are doing it wrong.

I'm fine with that but you can't knock the finished product when all your doing is looking at how they're building it.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #347 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
So you're saying instead of building a bridge we should see if someone has built one for us to use??

Let's face it, the club has decided that they're building a bridge and whilst they're doing the foundation work they are having a few issues. 

It might not be on time it might be expensive but they are intending to build a bridge a d don't seem worried about everyone who's telling them they are doing it wrong.

I'm fine with that but you can't knock the finished product when all your doing is looking at how they're building it.

You are missing the point.

There may be a tree fallen over that creates a bridge. Its not looking for someone else to build us one.

If we keep on the same path, head down, looking at where we put our next foot and continue on this path we will get to where we need to get too.....eventually.
However, if every now and then we stop, have a look around and evaluate our path and if it is the best one we can be taking, we might find that there is a better option along the way.

BUT, if we don't look, we don't find.

No harm in looking for a bridge. If none present itself, then on we trudge doing what we are doing.

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #348 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
So you're saying instead of building a bridge we should see if someone has built one for us to use??

Let's face it, the club has decided that they're building a bridge and whilst they're doing the foundation work they are having a few issues. 

It might not be on time it might be expensive but they are intending to build a bridge a d don't seem worried about everyone who's telling them they are doing it wrong.

I'm fine with that but you can't knock the finished product when all your doing is looking at how they're building it.

Sometimes it is better to say something ;D

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #349 –
To progress the lines of communication have to be very clear.

Like the time my wife came home with one of these;



She'd completely misunderstood! ;D
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #350 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Yep
That was his conclusion.
That's his summary
That's his main point.

But all the points he makes have been made.. we're well aware of them and agree with many.

But what's he getting at here....

Where I have an issue with a piece like this is that it's patronising.
It tells us to just be patient and everything will be OK.
I'll bet "London to a brick" that if we're bottom 4 in 2020 we'll have a new board, a new coach and a new list manager in 2021...and there won't be many Carlton people complaining about that.

I don't find it patronising at all telling us to be patient, back the process and don't fall into all the rubbish that the rebuild has been a failure and it's time to throw the baby out with the bath water after 18 months.

You want to see development first, results 2nd.  

Quote
Their 2017 offseason was instructive. Carlton traded in a 21 year old Matthew Kennedy, 22 year old Darcy Lang, and used free agency and the lesser drafts to backfill depth spots with Aaron Mullett, Cam O’Shea and Matt Shaw.

Quote from: Lods – on
Now of those players... none are guaranteed to be long term players for us.
It's a strategy, but it could just as easily be a strategy that sucks big time.

Of course there is no guarantee.   Just like there was no guarantee with Sam Docherty, Sam Kerridge or Liam Sumner.    It's a risk.   Just like using the Pick 28 we traded for Kennedy.

https://www.draftguru.com.au/picks/28   32 drafts ~ 46 avg games

Stacks of duds in that group.

Even with Lang and Kennedy you need to give them some time.   Both have had limited pre-season and while you might be justified in having concerns they aren't a write off just yet.



Re: Reset Rants

Reply #351 –
There is a point of difference in regard to being patient with some of the young players that have come to us for a greater opportunity as part of a trade. Most of them have also received a healthy pay rise, and that changes things! ;)

In that regard they are not like draftees, so for players like Marchbank, Kennedy, Pickett, Phillips, Lamb and perhaps even Garlett, the expectation for them having immediate impact on the team should probably be higher than for a Charlie, Weitering, Dow, Williamson, Macreadie or O'Brien, etc. etc..
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #352 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
See my point is that I want an explanation of what bridge everyone else seems to have been looking for.

There was no bridge.

I wasn't referring to an all-encompassing bridge but rather to a pathway along which there are many points where you make a choice of direction (or a choice of crossing.)
Sometimes there will be a choice made that seems a bit strange (we see it most weeks in match selections).

Surely those choices are the basis for discussion.

Quote from: Shakin77 – on
I don't find it patronising at all telling us to be patient, back the process and don't fall into all the rubbish that the rebuild has been a failure and it's time to throw the baby out with the bath water after 18 months.

You want to see development first, results 2nd.  


It is patronising because what he's saying is that in the end that he knows better...there will be no doubt this rebuild will be successful... and anyone who disagrees with that is talking bullcrap.
He doesn't know!
It could just as easy go belly-up.

No-body is saying the rebuild isn't working at this point...what they're saying is there are no guarantees it will work and we need to look for positive signs that it is on the improve.... and at the same time feel free to express our concerns.
Yep... I want to see development first and results 2nd.
There are good signs from some players, but there are also worrying signs from others....so lets see the development in those.

What we do need to see is progress and at the moment we seem to have stagnated.
Now there are obvious reason for that stagnation (injuries, loss of players) but the process needs a jump-start.
I have no problem backing a process I feel is working but it's just blind faith to back a process because you're told to... or you're disloyal.

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #353 –
You want to see development first, results 2nd.

Fair enough, but whats the time frame?....this the real world not SimCity, members are like shareholders and expect a return within a reasonable period of time.
Its now the 3rd year and we have bottomed out again, is it so unreasonable for supporters/members to question the process when we have gone backwards and been uncompetitive for most of the season?
Or are our results reasonable and some other teams who were strugglers have just improved more than us ie North, Collingwood etc?

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #354 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
You want to see development first, results 2nd.

Fair enough, but whats the time frame?....this the real world not SimCity, members are like shareholders and expect a return within a reasonable period of time.
Its now the 3rd year and we have bottomed out again, is it so unreasonable for supporters/members to question the process when we have gone backwards and been uncompetitive for most of the season?
Or are our results reasonable and some other teams who were strugglers have just improved more than us ie North, Collingwood etc?

Perhaps the members are unrealistic.

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #355 –
Quote from: spf – on
Perhaps the members are unrealistic.
Guarantee you some members are unrealistic. Wouldn't be a single player on the list that every member supports universally.

How much weight should be put into what the members think though?
Does the club know best?

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #356 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Guarantee you some members are unrealistic. Wouldn't be a single player on the list that every member supports universally.

How much weight should be put into what the members think though?
Does the club know best?

When you ask "does the club know best ?" ...............in relation to whom ? In relation to supporters, even a club coming dead last has staff who know more about football than any supporter. I guess the problem arises when said staff may not know as much as staff from teams coming first.

I reckon Charlie Curnow would have universal Navy Blue love, or at least 99%. Only the technically insane would poo poo CC.

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #357 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
When you ask "does the club know best ?" ...............in relation to whom ? In relation to supporters, even a club coming dead last has staff who know more about football than any supporter. I guess the problem arises when said staff may not know as much as staff from teams coming first.

I reckon Charlie Curnow would have universal Navy Blue love, or at least 99%. Only the technically insane would poo poo CC.

Daisy Thomas was on TFS last night and called Curnowfides dumb "and he wouldn't mind me saying that either". He said he has the nickname reindeer because he just gallops around without any idea on what he is going to do. He also said that if his teammates have no idea what he is going to do, how are the opposition supposed to work it out.

So, i guarantee you there are members who dislike his laissez faire approach.

I've got a mad Geelong member mate of mine who absolutely HATED Stevie J, basically for the same reason.

Which is the point, members will not agree. So should they be listened too?

Your contention that the club ALWAYS knows best in relation to supporters can be disproven.
Sydney Swans were looking for a coach. They had (unofficially?) signed Terry Wallace as coach, but due to HUGE supporter backlash and support for another candidate the club was forced to change their mind and go with the majority.
End result, Paul Roos gets signed and wins them their first flag in 73 years.
Club was wrong.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, but none quite so poignant as that.

Club SHOULD know whats best, but to just assume they do could leave you following a club that has spent the better part of 2 decades rebuilding after it got itself into salary cap issues. ;)

Re: Reset Rants

Reply #358 –
I think a point to make here is that we're a discussion forum.
If we cant be critical and discuss different aspects of the club there's not a lot of point to our existence.

I've found we're a pretty good cross section of members and supporters and over the years are pretty reflective of the general feelings of Carlton folk at any particular time.

My guess is at the moment we're running about 80% in favour of the current direction of the club.
But there are some who are starting to question some aspects of the rebuild.
It's pretty fair to say that continued lack of success will see that support gradually erode.

So the key is 'progress'.


Re: Reset Rants

Reply #359 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
You want to see development first, results 2nd.

Fair enough, but whats the time frame?....this the real world not SimCity, members are like shareholders and expect a return within a reasonable period of time.
Its now the 3rd year and we have bottomed out again, is it so unreasonable for supporters/members to question the process when we have gone backwards and been uncompetitive for most of the season?
Or are our results reasonable and some other teams who were strugglers have just improved more than us ie North, Collingwood etc?

In the real world you can't expect this list to be anymore than it currently is, given it's demographics.  If at the start of the season Essendon had our list we would have all said that a bottom 2 list.   Otherwise you are getting into Murray Goulbern Areas of telling everyone you will get $4 a litre for milk, when the market wants to pay $2

Our blue chips talent is all at the bottom end age wise.  It's difficult to draw parallels with North who still have Higgins, Goldstein, Robbie Tarrant, Ziebell, Cunnington, Brown all 25 years old with 100 odd games of football?   Who do we have in this bracket to match that?   Our blokes at that age bracket are Kerridge, Lamb, Mullett, Shaw, Phillips, Jones, Casboult, Wright, Curnow, Kreuzer, Lobbe.    Battlers and honest footballers.   These are the guys that are consistent with their performance week in week out.
North haven't cut back like we have.  They still have talent at the top end.    If they traded Zeibell and Higgins maybe.   

In 3-4 years time who will have the better list when this bracket moves on.

So timeframe?

GWS took 4 years to break 50/50, but had a massive injection of young talent.

Maybe similar to the Demons rebuild.    Vintage 2012.

Moved (or lost)  Rivers, Moloney, Stef Martin, Green, Sylvia, Frawley.   Cut the dead wood and didn't have much top end older talent.

2012: 16th 4 wins.   Rebuild Starts
2013:  17th 2 wins
2014:  17th 4 wins
2015:  13th 7 wins.
2016:  11th 10 wins.
2017:  9th  12 wins.

Now Melbourne haven't mastered the rebuild.   It's not the Blueprint, but it shows how long it can take and yes I think it can be done quicker with FA etc.   But you have Gawn (26), Viney (24), Hogan (23), Salem (22), Petracca (22), Hunt (23), Tyson (24) all at that 60-100 game bracket.   Add Oliver and you are on your way.
   
I would think bottom 4 next year.