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Topic: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn (Read 72949 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #210 –
Cripps finished strong and was probably our best player but he did nothing in the first quarter when the game was already over.

Howe: Mission accomplished
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!
 

Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #211 –
It's probably better to look at this in respect of the "pair" (Mitchell /Smith) rather than the "individual".
Ideally you tag them both.
That was the plan.
Fisher was the man for Mitchell.

Now, we send Curnow to Smith.... and Mitchell has a day out.
But if we send Curnow to Mitchell then Smith becomes more effective.

So you cant look at Mitchell's contribution in isolation.
You have to look at in terms of his contribution minus the effect of keeping Smith quieter (He had his second lowest possession game for the year)
....and that becomes a very much "lesser" total effect.

We should have tagged both?
Yep, But with who?
Kennedy was suggested several times by the commentators.
He's hard enough but he would have struggled with the running aspect.
Who else?
Prof E says O'Brien for Smith....a possibility. A good lesson if nothing else.

It does become a case of "robbing Peter to pay Paul", and when you're a couple of players down the ability to use another player with a purely run with role diminishes your options further.

Now I'm not excusing the coaches.
They made a judgement...and while one player was contained the other had a (predictably) exceptional game.
Am I critical Mitchell wasn't curtailed.
Yes I am.
Do I think Mitchell was more of priority than Smith.
Definitely! Statistically (and not just on disposals) there is daylight between them..
But I'm also glad it's not me with those decisions.
That's well above my pay grade.... and maybe not as simple or obvious as it looks in hindsight.

Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #212 –
Tagging is over-rated in the modern game, especially when the tagged players can basically take and throw the ball away in a microsecond, in any direction, free of penalty.

All that happens under the current game trend is that if you assign a tag, they get dragged into the stoppage with other tacklers leaving the opposition with greater numbers on the outside. The tagged player basically feigns a hand pass to an outside team-mate who is free to spread, or drops the ball and knees/shuffles it into the outside space, with the tagger and his assistants left holding a ball free meat bag! :o

It's such an obvious tactic it's even implemented at the lowest levels. Take possession, draw some tacklers, let the ball go to a team-mate on the outside. The chance of which is greatly enhanced by the ability to throw or drop the ball in any direction you like with just the slightest feign of a hand ball attempt to ensure you are not pinged!

Penalise players for throws and the tagger again has of some value.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #213 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
And Cripps' output was about normal, which proves my point. 30 disposals, 2 goals 1, 7 tackles. The tagger did little to quell his influence, and was effectively wasted. Even with their injuries, the Hawks could cover one man doing this job.

We have very limited resources. We can barely kick 80 points per game with 22 fit players and no taggers - how is playing 2 taggers going to help us ?

Whinging about tagging is one of the classic supporter lines. Through no fault of anyone of us, we are simply not privy to what happens in match committee meetings, in the coaches box etc. We can only react to simple scenarios - understandable but frustrating for all of us. Not playing a tag on Mitchell is part of a larger picture, which we don't know about.

When you have players kicking numerous set shots oof, when you have a team that are serial turnover merchants, when you have a team of kids and numpties struggling with zone defense, clearly Bolton has bigger problems than a tag.

I agree with most of that Paul.  However, Cripps was quieter than usual in the first quarter and that had me thinking that he may have been concussed.  I guess that clocking your opponent isn’t really tagging.

It’s interesting that Bolton is criticised for not tagging Mitchell when almost all other coaches do the same.  As you point out, Bolton has other higher priority issues to address than tagging a bloke who will still rack up possessions.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #214 –
Quote from: DJC – on
I agree with most of that Paul.  However, Cripps was quieter than usual in the first quarter and that had me thinking that he may have been concussed.  I guess that clocking your opponent isn’t really tagging.

It’s interesting that Bolton is criticised for not tagging Mitchell when almost all other coaches do the same.  As you point out, Bolton has other higher priority issues to address than tagging a bloke who will still rack up possessions.

Cripps problem is more about the players around him not knowing what to do, or being sucked into the stoppages, than his inability to win the football. Hawthorn would swap Cripps for Mitchell in a heartbeat!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #215 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Ed tagged Smith and did a much better job than Howe did on Cripps.  Clarkson should really have tried someone else on Cripps if he really wanted to curb his influence.  He probably should have had someone on Murphy too as he was second to Mitchell in metres gained.

Mitchell is rarely tagged, and I don’t believe that it’s all down to Buckley dismissing his impact.  Interestingly, Mitchell didn’t attract any coaches’ votes in his previous >40 possession game.  He reminds me of Ablett jnr at his best; a very good player who inflated his performances with inconsequential possessions.

I was happy to see our young blokes going head to head with Mitchell.  That will do much more for their development and the team’s progress than having Ed trying to lock Mitchell down.

Had 12 scoring involvements.....I dont see that as inconsequential, Bolton gave him the votes for the coaches award.......his DE was 80 plus last week and close to that vs us.......??
If Ed had tagged Curnow and Mitchell got his 40 plus then thats fine...I wont be potting BB for that but when you let him run around free then the coach should admit he made an error and learn from it....

Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #216 –
Quote from: LP – on
Cripps problem is more about the players around him not knowing what to do, or being sucked into the stoppages, than his inability to win the football. Hawthorn would swap Cripps for Mitchell in a heartbeat!

Not sure they would......Mitchell is vastly under rated, he has little class help either other than OMeara...if he stinks it up so much why did we try and make a play for him?
Cripps is tagged every week and subject to intense rotating pressure from different players, I'm sure Clarkson is happy for dummies like Bolton to ignore Mitchell and let him pick up 40 plus each week....





Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #217 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Not sure they would......Mitchell is vastly under rated, he has little class help either other than OMeara...if he stinks it up so much why did we try and make a play for him?
Cripps is tagged every week and subject to intense rotating pressure from different players, I'm sure Clarkson is happy for dummies like Bolton to ignore Mitchell and let him pick up 40 plus each week....

If those Cripps tags are worthwhile how can it be that he leads the AFLCA voting?

It's a mugs game, Cripps like Judd before him wants the opponents to come to him, opposition have the maximum effectiveness against Cripps when they run off him not when they try to tackle him! They hurt us more than he hurts them by ignoring him, they know he won't run and spread, and he rarely pushes forward. If he starts pushing forward more they have to look at him in far more detail, he even stated that is his goal for 2018, and it's sound thinking!

A few weeks back I argued against SoJ getting a mid-field run. One of the reasons for this was I could see SoJ shows his inexperience by going to his inside team-mate to help them, that counteracts players like Cripps and Kennedy, they want the opposition to come to them so they can release to someone like SoJ on the outside who can move the ball on quickly by hand!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #218 –
Quote from: LP – on
If those Cripps tags are worthwhile how can it be that he leads the AFLCA voting?

It's a mugs game, Cripps like Judd before him wants the opponents to come to him, opposition have the maximum effectiveness against Cripps when they run off him not when they try to tackle him! They hurt us more than he hurts them by ignoring him, they know he won't run and spread, and he rarely pushes forward. If he starts pushing forward more they have to look at him in far more detail, he even stated that is his goal for 2018, and it's sound thinking!

Cripps is a bit unit and a great player, hard to stop, but I'd still tag him ..Jacobs from Nth beat him, Buckley use Pendlebury in an effective manner on him IMO, even a 25% reduction in Cripps capacity is worth it IMO.
To leave Mitchell on his own was inexcusable as Roos suggested....

Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #219 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Cripps finished strong and was probably our best player but he did nothing in the first quarter when the game was already over.

Howe: Mission accomplished

Aha, someone gets it!
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #220 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Cripps is a bit unit and a great player, hard to stop, but I'd still tag him ..Jacobs from Nth beat him, Buckley use Pendlebury in an effective manner on him IMO, even a 25% reduction in Cripps capacity is worth it IMO.
To leave Mitchell on his own was inexcusable as Roos suggested....

I think that game supports my claim even more, Cripps won plenty of football but basically had nobody to hand it off to and he couldn't hurt Norp on his own. Our little mids were bullied by Norps big bodies on the outside with players like Ziebell, Cunnington and Higgins having field days!

Tagging Cripps is like trying to push the Titanic into dock with a straw, tagging a spreading player like Martin is more like hanging an extra tonne of weight on an F1, maybe it slows him down a little! But even then if it takes two or three to slow Martin that leaves Nthmond's speed free on the outside! We should be like Nthmond, let Cripps dish it out and have some speed to receive it on the outside!

I suppose our problem at the moment is that players like Dow, Polson, SPS, Pickett, Garlett and Fisher are easily slowed by a single opponent.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #221 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Cripps finished strong and was probably our best player but he did nothing in the first quarter when the game was already over.

Howe: Mission accomplished

The defense rests. If the game is already over at 1/4 time, with a scoreline of 4.3 to 0.0, how will tagging Mitchell help ? Isn't the big problem that we can't score to save ourselves ?

Watch the game and check the stats - similar disposals, similar cp, but 35 I50's to 58. We are dead last for I50's, I think we average about 30 odd. When you put it all together, we are breaking down between the arcs, over and over again, and can't organise ourselves fast enough in defense on the turnover.

It's not a tagging issue.

Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #222 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
It's not a tagging issue.

Yes I agree, for me it's almost everything else but a tagging issue!

It would be hypocritical of me to want more tags, after having kiboshed MM for a luddite game plan that had nothing but tags! That negative game plan, under the way the rules are currently interpreted and implemented, is too easily counteracted.

Further, specific to our list and players like Fisher, SPS, Dow and O'Brien, what would be the point of smashing kids on bodies they cannot stop! We may as well try and hurt them in ways we can, and most of our problems are not the inability to hurt teams in the way we can, it's the skill errors from the same old same olds that bring us undone!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #223 –
Um, Tom Mitchell....182cm, 84kg.

SOJ - Paddy Dow? 184cm, 80kg (and i'd say a few kg on top).
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: 2018 Rd 17: Post Game whatever : Carlton vs Hawthorn

Reply #224 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
The defense rests. If the game is already over at 1/4 time, with a scoreline of 4.3 to 0.0, how will tagging Mitchell help ? Isn't the big problem that we can't score to save ourselves ?

Watch the game and check the stats - similar disposals, similar cp, but 35 I50's to 58. We are dead last for I50's, I think we average about 30 odd. When you put it all together, we are breaking down between the arcs, over and over again, and can't organise ourselves fast enough in defense on the turnover.

It's not a tagging issue.

As Roos pointed out it was the ideal opportunity to teach a kid something, tagging/running with Mitchell. It was more than just a game gone by qtr time, our season is gone, so let's invest in teaching our blokes the patterns etc of AFL leaders? Opportunity knocked and we didn't answer.

But I suspect winning a game is about the last thing we want at present. Every time we lose a game, and get closer to having the no. 1 draft pick to use or trade, you can see SOS dancing up and down Lygon Street. If only we could be confident he'd use it to our greatest possible advantage.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17