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Topic: CV and mad panic behaviour (Read 872203 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #900 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
I'm not a particular fan of his - he has overseen some good stuff and some bad stuff imo but this has to go down as a bad one imho.
I'd say just like Scotty from Marketing, they are on a hiding to nothing because this is a battle they can only win with the committed help of the general public, and it's being proven without doubt that the general public has far too many cockheads!

Even with our relatively low per-capita cockhead count, compared to say the USA, UK or Sweden, we are still in for a world of pain!

It's funny that some laud SA, WA, Qld or NSW and even NZ as prime examples of good management, but in doing so wilfully ignore the risk of going the early crow!

We have 250 million people an hour or two off the north coast, a very large percentage of which might be in big big trouble in the coming months and well be here as a Western nation almost powerless to help.

I'm with Thry, this is so far from over that as yet it has barely started!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #901 –
Quote from: LP – on
I'd say just like Scotty from Marketing, they are on a hiding to nothing because this is a battle they can only win with the committed help of the general public, and it's being proven without doubt that the general public has far too many cockheads!

It's funny that some laud SA, WA, Qld or NSW and even NZ as prime examples, but in doing so wilfully ignore the risks of going the early crow!

I'm with Thry, this is so far from over that as yet it has barely started!

Maybe so but you have to understand and cater for that in developing a solution to address the problem. No point rolling out a solution which may work fine if everyone was of high IQ and was capable of understanding and following directions. If you know that's not the case then you need a more robust solution to cater for that surely? "The operation went great but unfortunately the patient died"?
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #902 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Part of Dan's job imo would be to protect the people of Victoria from threats to their well-being, posed in various forms including pandemics. All likely risks should be assessed and mitigated in provision of that protection, including the one of people ignoring or under-estimating the threat and not willingly following directions, a not unheard of phenomenon. The security at quarantine sites has been clearly shown to be inadequate i.e. was a failure - a failure of risk assessment, a failure of decision making and a failure of process. This all reefs back to the Victorian government of which Daniel Andrews is the leader.

I'm not a particular fan of his - he has overseen some good stuff and some bad stuff imo but this has to go down as a bad one imho.

Sure, and heads will roll for it. But there are a lot of people under him that had a say in that matter that should be made accountable before it ever gets to him in this instance.

if we sacked every politician anytime something went wrong at any level, we'd never have any politicians left.
They oversee hundreds of projects, which employ thousands upon thousands of people. Some of those people are going to stuff up at some stage (nobody is pefect). So because there is 1 person at the top of that chain, he should go?

As i said before, its an overreaction to an emotional topic.
If 1 letter from Australia Post goes missing, do we sack the CEO? He is ultimately in charge....

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #903 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Sure, and heads will roll for it. But there are a lot of people under him that had a say in that matter that should be made accountable before it ever gets to him in this instance.

if we sacked every politician anytime something went wrong at any level, we'd never have any politicians left.
They oversee hundreds of projects, which employ thousands upon thousands of people. Some of those people are going to stuff up at some stage (nobody is pefect). So because there is 1 person at the top of that chain, he should go?

As i said before, its an overreaction to an emotional topic.
If 1 letter from Australia Post goes missing, do we sack the CEO? He is ultimately in charge....


I didn't say anything about sacking him, at this stage,  - but certainly mark this one down in the negative column of his ledger. Also, I think this stuff up is slightly more serious than losing a letter - prolongation of this lock down is likely to cost many millions of dollars and result in thousands of people possibly losing their livelihoods in the form of their business or job. Certainly something that will no doubt generate plenty of emotion, but an overreaction?? I don't think so - answers are required and as soon as possible.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #904 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Maybe so but you have to understand and cater for that in developing a solution to address the problem. No point rolling out a solution which may work fine if everyone was of high IQ and was capable of understanding and following directions. If you know that's not the case then you need a more robust solution to cater for that surely? "The operation went great but unfortunately the patient died"?
If they do what they must to stop the cockheads many will vote them out for being totalitarian!

They may as well though, because ironically they get accused of that as well, there is no middle ground in the commentary. They are either deficient or excessive!

Although politicians do have a lot of stupid stuff to answer for, in this case the problem is clearly the people.

A passive protest or wilful disobedience in the best Ghandi style won't stop this virus, it'll roll right over you like a Tienanmen Square tank! In fact it'll probably pluck you from the herd like a perimeter straggler!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #905 –
Without this post being part of the over arching debate.

The hotels were used to keep them in paid employment (note, hospital beds are more expensive than a 5 star hotel).

The security guards employed by the hotels are employed by whom, government or the hotels?  Who is responsible to ensure they are doing the job, the hotels or the government? Why are the hotels not wearing the heat in this debate?

Does anyone recall the sensationalist media surrounding the poor people locked in their rooms and not able to leave?  So on one hand they werent allowed to do anything, and on the other they broke the rules and spread the virus wantonly.

Finally, there is a lot of scuttlebutt floating around about how this all has come about, but at one point I seem to recall a bloke caught a shuttle from melbourne airport to frankston and was over heard talking about it on the phone.  Does this fit the timeline of the quarantine hotels having security issues?

Theres so much misinformation floating around, and its all out there trying to protect billion dollar business and industries, not the person getting job keeper to keep their coffee shop open.








"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #906 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
I didn't say anything about sacking him, at this stage,  - but certainly mark this one down in the negative column of his ledger. Also, I think this stuff up is slightly more serious than losing a letter - prolongation of this lock down is likely to cost many millions of dollars and result in thousands of people possibly losing their livelihoods in the form of their business or job. Certainly something that will no doubt generate plenty of emotion, but an overreaction?? I don't think so - answers are required and as soon as possible.

Personally i think he has handled the whole situation (this incident aside) remarkably well.

You may not be calling for his sacking, but plenty are. There was a heated debate at work the other day in which someone threatened to quit over someones politcal stance......essentially escalated from a anti/pro Dan Andrews debate. There are a lot of feelings over him, before, during and after the security incident.

So i'd call that an overreaction....social media has some others backing that up too.

Personally, i tend to stay away from political debates but the anger i've seen directed at Dan Andrews over this incident has led me to try and speak some common sense on the matter.

As an example of some anti-Andrews commentary i've heard
1. Where is Dan Andrews in all of this? He is staying silent and needs to speak up/out!
2. Bloody Dan Andrews is spending all his time in front of the camera, no wonder he can't control some security guards.

Completely contradictory, and he's on a hiding to nothing.

For some perspective, see one D. Trump and the 'mighty' U.S. of A.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #907 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
Maybe so but you have to understand and cater for that in developing a solution to address the problem. No point rolling out a solution which may work fine if everyone was of high IQ and was capable of understanding and following directions. If you know that's not the case then you need a more robust solution to cater for that surely? "The operation went great but unfortunately the patient died"?

I get where you're coming from Fluffy One... I think. But there is hardly much more that govt could do other than a total lockdown ensuring that those who, for whatever reason, just won't co-operate are kept under lock and key and for that you'd need all the military and to probably double the police force AND a Communist China approach. It seems in the less populated states you can almost absorb the c0ckhead factor but in cities of 4 mil plus... holy mackerel.

Most folks get it and are co-operating. I reckon the govts (Fed and State) are trying the balancing act of people health and economic health. In the name of economic health lockdown's aren't as stringent as they could be. Plus there's the cost of actually enforcing and policing a lockdown - when again you get economic vs human cost. I actually feel for the pollies regardless of what side they represent... they're on a hiding to nothing no matter what they do - it's either too much or not enough or not done right or spending too much money or costing too much money.

This is ours and their first time dealing with such a serious pandemic since 100 years ago... there might be some learning as they go. They are all following the advice from their medical bosses, then trying to pay for it. Tough gig when you're surrounded by journalists who all know better on how it should be done.

As I've said before, I reckon, under the circumstances they're all doing their best and are doing a good job.

Only anecdotes but here on the Island only about 2 weeks ago we had some holidaymakers flouting quarantine guidelines by having secret backyard parties and so on. Every day Aussies. We had a bunch a few doors down and we just couldn't believe it and before you ask... all Aussies, no English is their 2nd or 3rd language stuff going on. The one thing I did notice, it was younger people having the clandestine parties... almost showing off. And only today I spoke with a friend from Prahran who said she couldn't believe the number of people, again younger ones, going about their business in the shopping precincts as if nothing is wrong... not a mask in sight! So what do you do about these people who know better but just don't seem to give a cr@p? You can't hang a Premier or a Prime Minister for not being able to control these clowns, they can only get advice from those who know (medical and police) and implement it, the rest is up to civic compliance.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #909 –
@Baggers

Baggers I take the view that either we a fighting a serious and life-threatening pandemic or we are not. If we are, then the government's obligation is to take all necessary steps to enforce the measures they have deemed necessary. If they aren't prepared to do that then just stop their bleating and wear whatever the outcome and be judged on that. All else is just hot air imo. Let's see what stage 4 may bring?
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #910 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
@Baggers

Baggers I take the view that either we a fighting a serious and life-threatening pandemic or we are not. If we are, then the government's obligation is to take all necessary steps to enforce the measures they have deemed necessary. If they aren't prepared to do that then just stop their bleating and wear whatever the outcome and be judged on that. All else is just hot air imo. Let's see what stage 4 may bring?


And therein lies the quandry.

The govts have medicos telling them one thing (lockdowns etc) to save lives and prevent flooding ICUs and economists telling them the dire cost if they go down that road too far and/or for too long. And the balancing act is proving precarious. The only nation that seems to have gotten it 100% right (aided by a smaller population) has been the Kiwis and they opted for the hard lockdown over an extended period and virtually shutting their borders. Result? Virtually no C-19. And we now have states here following suit, especially the closing of boarders to prevent all those diseased Melbournians and Sydneysiders.

Getting pollies and businesses to go hard either way as you say in your first sentence is a very reasonable but a polarising view. Because, ultimately... committing to one approach or the other, totally (a la NZ and now many of our states) either stops C-19 in its tracks but results in a massive financial burden/loss, or results in higher fatalities but is better for business.

So far I've tried to see it from both sides and to reason why the govts are doing what they're doing and I believe their approach is understandable (Fed & State) with only one fatal flaw in their strategy - trusting the general public to adhere to instructions to limit/prevent the C-19 spread. Maybe it's time to go much harder with quarantine rules, much harder.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #912 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
So far I've tried to see it from both sides and to reason why the govts are doing what they're doing and I believe their approach is understandable (Fed & State) with only one fatal flaw in their strategy - trusting the general public to adhere to instructions to limit/prevent the C-19 spread. Maybe it's time to go much harder with quarantine rules, much harder.
Might economies that decouple from GDP as a measure of economic health actually have a chance of profiting from this situation? The reason seems to be that an economy built on thrift and efficiency as a lever, rather than consumption, might see a performance improvement in the current circumstance.

But some think that ideology is anathema to capitalism, philosophically capitalism requires continuous growth. I'm not sure both can't exist if people are willing to change, the problem is a people problem built around different priorities for cost, value, efficiency and utility!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #913 –
I tend to blame ScoMo more than Andrews, he pushed for a reopening due to the economic effects and Andrews was forced to comply after being the Jacinda Ardern of Australia and enforcing the tightest lockdown of all states.
Speaking of Ardern she nailed it with stage 4 from late March and NZ have had 17 days with no cases, its the only proven way with no vaccine and both Victoria and NSW need to adopt same for a couple of months at least.
We cant be opening, locking down, opening, locking down and repeating the cycle, we need to go hard now and the economy is going to have to get worse and yes we will pay for it later but thats the scenario IMO.



Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #914 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
Maybe it's time to go much harder with quarantine rules, much harder.

NEVER reward bad behaviour Baggers.  Fines should be tripled and damn well enforced and NO exceptions.