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Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #1711 –
Quote from: DJC – on
It's interesting to note that Prof Carl Heneghan is professor of evidence-based medicine but he never retracts or revises his articles when new and/or evolving evidence shows that he is wrong.  Of course, his articles aren't peer reviewed and he is paid to write stuff that hooks in readers.

An acquaintance of mine, in his early 50s and with no underlying health issues, contracted COVID-19 earlier this year in the UK.  He spent 90 days in hospital, 75 of those in a coma.  I doubt whether he will ever get back to normal.

I will be wearing a mask, social distancing, washing my hands and generally following the advice of Prof Sutton and his team.

Please provide an example (related to CV19) where Heneghan should have retracted ( or whatever) his work?

Peer review, it's a circus. All but worthless - as the science shows.

https://www.vox.com/2015/12/7/9865086/peer-review-science-problems
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #1712 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
Peer review, it's a circus. All but worthless - as the science shows.
I suspect from your own perspective this appears 100% correct, but to many of us you seem to have a penchant for picking out bogus predatory journals, unqualified opinions dressed up as a peer review, and mostly very poorly referenced and misunderstood meta data analysis as a scientific studies.

So I suspect it's not the science that has the problem! ;)
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #1713 –
Denys science, then claims “science” supports their position... 🙄
Nice work Dennis 🤣
Let’s go BIG !

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #1714 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
We have a whole bloody world to draw data and experience from.

Yes, we are lucky the virus never really got going here - thanks largely to the fact we're an island a long way from anywhere.

If you think lockdowns fixed 'Dan's little f... up' , you're kidding.

It was beaten well before any of the Stage 3 or 4 measures had any effect - yep, social distancing, quarantining the sick (only) basic hygiene and a dose of common sense are ample - as long as numpties like those who run Victoria aren't derelict in their duties.

as they were, often.

Im calling you out on your hypocrisy here.

If you don't like what is being written by anyone, then go for it.

A world of data, yet different strains in different nations, with different biology and different impacts to population.

You might want to have a good hard think about what is what.  Dan's stuff ups as you call it may have caused a wave, but that asserts something that seems to be a fallousy, and let me show you that for a moment.

Had we better quarantine procedures, there would be no second wave.

Yet, in hospital settings, with PPE being worn, we have examples of the virus infecting hospital staff.

Ergo, the quarantine scenario handled 100% properly might have yielded the exact same result over a longer period of time.  It automatically disqualifies your assertion about the quarantine.



"it was well beaten before the measures"....

Its possible the virus was hidden in the community spreading silently.  Therefore this assertion is also nothing but an unprovable assertion.

Yes, we are lucky to live in an island nation, and yes it didnt really get going, but you are asserting that widespread infection occurred irrespective because of stuff ups, so which one is it hypocrite?  It got out of hand because of stuff ups or it didnt get out of hand because of stuff ups, and we are lucky because we are an island?

Can you not see how you continue to run arguments in a fashion where you have a bet each way and call yourself the winner and everyone else the loser??

last I checked the United Kingdom isnt connected to any mainland.  keep that in mind with their 100s of 1000's of cases and their lockdowns.

Lucky they arent an Island I guess...
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #1715 –
@Thryleon Are we wasting time debating the ill, perhaps the better strategy is empathy and gentle steering rather than combative debate?

If we look at the wider trend, disputing authority, cherry-picking news media and social media opinion, the problems and solutions become self evident.

Where does the psychosis come from, how to understand it, how to help those suffering from it?

The weight of science won't win this debate no matter how probable the evidence becomes, because true science is never certain, and the denial exists outside of science yet like the cherry-picked facts it is wrapped in fragments of scientific language and context. Ironically it's the certainty with which the science evidence is denied that exposes the error.

I can't help but feel the Trump Flip is universal, if circumstance bite like they did for Trump, the attitude will temporarily flip like Trump, then after / if recovery occurs, it flips again this time to highlight the recovery in difference to those who didn't! Of course it is true this happens, nobody outside of those seriously disturbed want to die from a case of COVID, but of course some do die as by the time the denial is overcome by concern it's too late! That is the evil in the social media debate, it's increases the death rate, words kill!

From your own perspective, you see the irony in those who argue against action from an economic rationalist perspective, demanding hospital based remediation as the better economic choice! It's a bit like Trump and Musk moving people to Mars as a cheaper alternative to addressing climate change! :o
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #1716 –
Being an island continent helps because there’s a body of water between us and infected countries.

The US is in a continent separated from China and European countries by a body of water. The UK is separated from China and European countries by a body of water.

So why are the US & UK facing exponential growth of Covid when Australia isn’t? Maybe the body of water thing isn’t such a great differentiator.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #1717 –
Quote from: Mav – on
So why are the US & UK facing exponential growth of Covid when Australia isn’t? Maybe the body of water thing isn’t such a great differentiator.
On this UK issue, my UK associates would assert freedom to speak is not by definition freedom to speak rubbish.

Freedom to speak rubbish isn't a freedom at all but a form of peer group based oppression which results from the consequences of parroting out rubbish!

They seem to think that the UK and USA suffer this equally, and they get very strong support in the above hypothesis from many associates who have emigrated to the UK or USA from totalitarian or socialist regimes!

I note the language surrounding the Victorian lock-down, the "Dictator Dan" stuff, seems to be very very similar!

Words kill, words expressed in stupidity are even more lethal! It's not stating something wrong that is the problem, it's the stubborn refusal to accept a statement was wrong in the presence of over-arching evidence that is stupid and lethal.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"
 

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #1718 –
It is a big difference given the relative distances and ease of travel access.  Moreover, our comparatively tiny population; i.e. Canada and the United States radically different death rates.  Multitude of reasons

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #1719 –
PCR
PCR can be considered analogous to a dogs sense of smell, acute and accurate, it can identify something from a trace.

When a dog detects a fox, it's the dog's sense of smell that detects that first trace, just one of the dogs many built in senses(tests) of a fox. Then the dog's eye, ears, teeth and taste buds confirm it's about to bite on a fox and not just a log the fox once sat on! Those other senses, the other tests the dog can do, determine the truth about the dog's detection.

When deniers or sceptics concentrate on PCR as a critique of Sars-CoV-2 testing. They expose a deeply flawed and fundamental lack of understanding how test, trace and diagnosis work. PCR is potentially just the smell of a virus, there are a host of other tests that confirm the diagnosis, lab tests, scans, observations from medical professionals, it is just that PCR is very very effective at detecting a trace of Sars-CoV-2.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #1720 –
Death Rates
Even worse behaviour still, is when PCR test results are deliberately cross compiled with diagnostic results and / or hospitalisations in an attempt to paint deaths rates as declining. PCR forms just one part of diagnosis, it says test here, to which other tests confirm a case! As the rate of confirmed cases rise, the relative number of hospitalisations to PCR tests will drop, due to PCR testing delivering options for early detection, detection and isolation of asymptomatic spreaders, recovered mild cases, and early intervention. But this is Deaths/PCR test number is misrepresented as declining death rates.

However death rates as a percentage of hospitalisation Deaths/Hospitalisation are pretty much a fixed ratio globally, it's a number reached that point where small local variations do not make much difference because the average is being calculated over such a big figure, and in the absence of strong lock-downs and good social distancing practises there will be more hospitalisations resulting in more deaths.

Even News Ltd have conceded and published the real figures recently, you could have knocked me over with a feather, I suppose they'v lost their biggest fan!

As Europe and the USA burns, the sceptics must be swallowing ground teeth while eating their bomb shelter wheatbix, and how do the "preppers" reconcile the conspiracy given they so readily propagate it before locking themselves down, disappearing regularly then periodically surfacing to post another brace of fake claims and false hypothesis before scuttling underground again! The Internets version of rock-throwers!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #1721 –
Quote from: capcom – on
It is a big difference given the relative distances and ease of travel access.  Moreover, our comparatively tiny population; i.e. Canada and the United States radically different death rates.  Multitude of reasons
Really? Americans might believe we’re all Crocodile Dundees who walk around in rural areas while kangaroos hop around close by. We know different. About 80% or more of us live in major coastal cities. These cities aren’t greatly different to US cities. Much of their country also has low-density country areas. Hell, the State of Wyoming only has a total population of about 500,000. Initially, the rural-dominated Red States were fairly untouched by Covid but now they’re in it up to their eyeballs.

Maybe Canada handled Covid much better than the US? After all, being a much colder country on the whole, its population was much more likely to congregate inside to take refuge from the snow and wind and the US has found that winter has been a problem for this reason. Maybe Canadians wear masks?

As for the ease of travel access, Australia had considerable tourist and business traffic, including direct flights from China. We had to deal with cruise ships. The ease of travel access is irrelevant. The only issue is whether there was an inflow of people from overseas. The virus has never cared whether those people have had to travel for days, hours or minutes. Once established in a population a small number of cases can explode exponentially. It’s then a question of whether authorities can suppress it successfully. The US has failed spectacularly.

Only Trumpists would try to blame Mexicans for bringing Covid across the border. Their cases came from people flying in from Europe and China to NY and other major cities. The US could have restricted that travel but chose not to do it. Even the China ban was porous as Americans were able to go there and back at will. Some 40,000 people flew in from China after the ban was imposed.

Simply put, pandemics cross water given air and sea travel. Whether it runs rampant depends on the response to it.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #1722 –
We can toss around figures all day .... US have near on 14 times our population, UK more than double.  New York alone 8.5 million. 

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #1723 –
Quote from: capcom – on
We can toss around figures all day .... US have near on 14 times our population, UK more than double.  New York alone 8.5 million. 

14x the population, but about 260x the covid death rates.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #1724 –
I agree with Chris Hedges and Richard Wolff - the handling of the pandemic by the US government was a big factor, but the for-profit-only healthcare system is also culpable. The only developed country that doesn't have universal healthcare.