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Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5220 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
My daughter is a vaxed RN, three of her friends who are senior RNs with specialities are not vaxed and you want to fire them and  replace them with what? How many lives is that going to cost, there needs to be a way to still employ highly skilled nurses unvaxed and not have them leave the job.
I don't want a mandate that sacks highly skilled staff replaces them with div2 enrolled trainees from parts unknown looking for an easy way to get to get residency and burns the remaining skilled nurses who have to cover for them....there is enough of that happening already.


Two unvaccinated nurses recently caused the suspension of cardiac surgery at a major Sydney hospital while the surgeons, nurses, anaesthetists isolated for 14 days.  How many lives will similar incidents cost?
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/unvaccinated-nurses-bring-heart-procedures-to-standstill-in-sydney-hospital-20210916-p58s7v.html

Health workers are under great pressure and they deserve to have a safe workplace and that includes minimising exposure to COVID.  Of course, people can choose not to vaccinate and others can choose not to have them in the workplace.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5221 –
I understated the breadth of the mandate across Australia. WA, NSW, Qld, Tassie and Victoria have them. The AMA has called on the National Cabinet to impose a nationally consistent mandate over the entire country that covers all health workers, including GPs: https://www.ama.com.au/media/ama-wants-nationally-consistent-mandatory-covid-vaccination-all-healthcare-staff

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5222 –
Quote from: Mav – on
Chances are they won’t be fired as they’ll vaccinate. They’ve found in the US that staff were happy to talk tough with pollsters but few followed through. The higher the qualifications, the more difficult it is to walk away.

And if a few unvaccinated walk away, the benefits outweigh the costs.

By the way, let’s not lose sight of the fact that this is not just a Victorian policy. It’s just about in force in NSW and WA is doing the same. And it’ll be hard for unvaccinated nurses to travel overseas to ply their trade if they can’t get on planes or get through immigration if they’re not vaccinated.
Some are genuinely scared while others are genuinely selfish, externally it is often impossible to tell. The selfish are sometimes quite clever, the clever ones are not dumb selfish, they work on the fringes of logic and can elicit support with clever arguments.

That friend I posted about earlier, that is genuinely dumb selfish, but she is completely oblivious to her hypocrisy and thinks she is entitled to have all her friends and family bend to her will so she can choose to swim against the tide. It reminds me of the movie Something About Mary and '7 Minute Abs'.

YouTube video:
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"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5224 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Two unvaccinated nurses recently caused the suspension of cardiac surgery at a major Sydney hospital while the surgeons, nurses, anaesthetists isolated for 14 days.  How many lives will similar incidents cost?
https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/unvaccinated-nurses-bring-heart-procedures-to-standstill-in-sydney-hospital-20210916-p58s7v.html

Health workers are under great pressure and they deserve to have a safe workplace and that includes minimising exposure to COVID.  Of course, people can choose not to vaccinate and others can choose not to have them in the workplace.
Thats fine but when you sack or remove skilled nurses from the system you need to replace them with same...not dope growers from Cambodia wanting a residency visa who have trouble working out which end of a hypodermic is the sharp bit.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5225 –
The mandate should carry legal protection for employers in the health industry so they can enforce it without fearing SLAPP suits in retaliation. If a healthcare worker is unvaccinated after the deadline expires, s/he is automatically fired (subject to exceptions for valid excuses). Simples. No litigation allowed.

By all means, have an appeal available to a medical board where there’s a disagreement over the validity of an excuse, but that’s about it.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5226 –
I suppose you could flip this argument, and also ask how many valuable and skilled health workers might walk away simply because they are being forced to work for long hours in close proximity to a vocal minority who are greatly increasing the level of risk?

They are sitting next to each other, sharing keyboards, pens, clipboards, toilets, lunch rooms, change rooms, showers, lifts, etc., etc., etc.!

If you were susceptible to that sort of worry then work would become very onerous, it is another layer above dealing with patients. Sort of like the halitosis riddled boss peering over your shoulder!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5227 –
I think we all need to take a big breathe about this stuff.

Generally, you need to put yourself on both sides of this.

1.  we have a new vaccine.  Nurses arent joe average.  They aren't anti vax per se, but they will have an experience of the health care networks, and how they function which makes their stance slightly easier to understand than the run of the mill anti vaxxers who seem to pedal an entirely different mantra.  People tend to form their perspectives based on life experience, and simply ignoring and belittling this thought process from what I would consider a medical professional, has its own issues.  Remember, if these people aren't doing their job properly, they wouldnt be in the system to start with. 

2.  irrespective of where you sit on the mandatory jab situation, the nurses should have a right to not lose their jobs, if they are in the above category instead we need to work with, understand, and educate (this has been a sever shortfall of the current communication strategy).  Im sure Q&A could arrange for better conversations to play out.  I have had to have one too many arguments with people over what is at best, faulty thinking that confirms their biases both for and against vaccination and this is in the general public.  They get their information through faulty sources and fill in gaps, where gaps appear.  Dangerous in and of itself.

3.  From the publics perspective, catching covid off an unvaccinated health care worker, is simply not an outcome that is going to do anything positive for anyone.

4.  That means that all public health staff are going to have be mandatory vaxxed like it or not.

This doesnt mean that they are out of a job though.  There are alternatives.  They can do frequent rapid tests to ensure they arent working if positive.  They can also be put in situations, where being vaccinated is less important i.e. working in facilities where people are fully vaccinated or potentially be in charge of surgical bookings which is not a face to face role, and does require a working knowledge of health and the health care system.

There is too much high horse stuff going on either way IMHO.  There are assertions of knowledge, that are just simply impossible to know and generally the anti vax sentiment is more guilty of this than the pro, but the trepidation from the vaccine cautious who I put in a category of their own, is perfectly understandable and hence why I am less difinitive on it.  Ultimately the benefits of vaccination clearly outweigh the pitfalls but if people are not really sold, then forcing them to get vaccinated might yield worse outcomes for society, where you end up with riots at the CFMEU offices as a classic example.  I have no doubt, that the language surrounding the jab is what fueled that, and then shutting down that industry hurt the many to try and stop the few, and in turn, simply created a bigger problem.

What was the use in that?  there was none.  I think policing a mandatory jab is going to be a lot harder anyway because it relies on overly draconian measure put in place that the majority will reject.  The consequence?  you have created the movement you are trying to squash, when it should have been welcomed, debated and talked to.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5228 –
While I sympathise it is not symmetrical, there is a difference between ideology and real world on both sides of this argument.

The cost of giving the unvaccinated liberty while keeping people as safe as possible is high, and the risk of allowing the unvaccinated the liberty to work in critical environments without excessive cost or administrative overheads is also high.

If I'm a cold, calculating economist, accountant or epidemiologist I potentially calculate that the cost of job losses is the lowest cost, but obviously not for the individual!

There may be solutions in the long term, but nobody is going to have the political will or be prepared to take the higher risk path in the short term. It sucks for some but it's just the way it is!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5229 –
Critical Care Nurses have to do daily rapid antigen tests as well as weekly nasal swab tests as do CoVid ward staff and a couple of other specialty areas. I dont have a problem with removing staff who are not vaccinated  but I do have a problem with replacing them with lesser staff or no staff at all. There seems to be a misunderstanding that all nurses are the same and can all do the same functions and that the remaining qualified staff have to carry and cover for the inexperienced replacements.
The Public system is broken and CoVid has just exposed the cracks both the Governments both Federal and State need to fix it.....as the population increases you need more hospitals and need to be training more staff at the same high standard.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5230 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
My daughter is a vaxed RN, three of her friends who are senior RNs with specialities are not vaxed and you want to fire them and  replace them with what? How many lives is that going to cost, there needs to be a way to still employ highly skilled nurses unvaxed and not have them leave the job.
I don't want a mandate that sacks highly skilled staff replaces them with div2 enrolled trainees from parts unknown looking for an easy way to get to get residency and burns the remaining skilled nurses who have to cover for them....there is enough of that happening already.


On reading your post, what springs to mind is the thought of three unvaccinated senior RNs working with patients more likely than not to have compromised immune systems. 

No doubt the three of them are well, otherwise they would not be working.  If they should catch covid their chances of survival are far greater than the patients under their control.

The question I have is this: given the dreadful situation facing staff and patients in our hospitals,  how many lives can they cost if they remain unvaccinated?

It just blows my mind that so-called responsible people knowingly place others in harm's way.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5231 –
Quote from: Macca37 – on
On reading your post, what springs to mind is the thought of three unvaccinated senior RNs working with patients more likely than not to have compromised immune systems. 

No doubt the three of them are well, otherwise they would not be working.  If they should catch covid their chances of survival are far greater than the patients under their control.

The question I have is this: given the dreadful situation facing staff and patients in our hospitals,  how many lives can they cost if they remain unvaccinated?

It just blows my mind that so-called responsible people knowingly place others in harm's way.
They have regular rapid antigen tests as well as nasal swab testing, two will probably have the vaccine but the other one will more than likely refuse and not be allowed to work which is a shame as she is a brilliant ER nurse both academically and practically and provided great advice to my family when we needed it.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5232 –
NSW Supreme Court hearing on now.

YouTube video:
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My word the lawyers acting for the Plaintiffs are terrible. Zero chance of a win.
Finals, then 4 in a row!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5233 –
Quote from: flyboy77 – on
NSW Supreme Court hearing on now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRJYXZn7HPE

My word the lawyers acting for the Plaintiffs are terrible. Zero chance of a win.
Got sent same.....Marcus Clarke i think it was looks and sounds the part but the others
look like they were waiting for afternoon tea to be served...
Dr Gale didnt have much in the reference bin either....
Video has been pulled......

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5234 –
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that a nurse should have the right to work if s/he has concerns that s/he may be harmed by the vaccine, even if the risk is speculative and there’s a countervailing risk to patients and coworkers. Then shouldn’t the patients have a similar right to refuse to be treated by unvaccinated nurses? After all, as a subset of the population they have more to fear from Covid than the average punter. If you’re a transplant patient going in for a checkup, would you want to reduce the risks of being infected by staff?

To exercise such a right to object, the unvaccinated status of staff would need to be communicated to patients and a sufficient number of suitably qualified vaccinated staff would need to be available to avoid patients being forced by circumstances to accept treatment from unvaccinated staff. Of course, anti-vaxxers will say forcing the unvaccinated staff to reveal their status is like the Nazis forcing the Jews to wear yellow Stars of David ...

Should the privacy and rights of unvaccinated staff take priority over the rights of patients? Should patients be told that their fears are unreasonable and their nurses’ vaccination status is not theirs to know?