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Topic: CV and mad panic behaviour (Read 929529 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5550 –
When the government removed the ability to litigate if the vaccines proved problematic then you created suspicion and doubt.
You also had vaccines being made available to certain age groups and other age groups were denied the same choices so you created a divide in the community.
Dan fecked up quarantine, lied so why would anyone trust anything coming out of his mouth especially a mandate supported by heavy handed police action. That's China or Nth Korean style politics...

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5551 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
When the government removed the ability to litigate if the vaccines proved problematic then you created suspicion and doubt.
Why do people who can have the vaccine but refuse to have it still hold the right to sue for COVID treatment, or sue for harm as a result of failed or imperfect COVID treatment?

I have no problems with the legal stance to protect health care workers(Like your family) and the health care system, that is basically what the law is about, stopping innocent bystanders become collateral damage and stopping spurious claims being weaponised to cripple the system. At the time the laws were introduced there were doctors communicating threats made against them by the anti-vax movement, threats which were designed to scare doctors and health workers away from participation in the vaccination effort.

To me the law just didn't go far enough, if someone can have a vaccine but refuse it then they shouldn't be able to sue the health care workers or system for the harm COVID or a COVID treatment does. Refusing COVID treatment is always an option, but it seems very few do!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5552 –
Heavy-handed police action? Wow, that's a bit of an exaggeration right there. Has a goon squad been formed I don't know about with batons at the ready?

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5553 –
Quote from: Mav – on
Heavy-handed police action? Wow, that's a bit of a tell right there. Has a goon squad been formed I don't know about with batons at the ready?

A tell of what?
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5554 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
a mandate supported by heavy handed police action.
Didn't the crowd charged the police @ElwoodBlues1‍ , wasn't that the moment it all changed?

Prior to that moment, the police seemed to be doing what they normally do for any such mass protest, and it was quite interesting to see the length the protestors would go to persuade the public, burly building workers dressing up as elderly women for example. Yet I'm apparently misinformed and mislead by the other side of the debate!

I don't see VicPol in clown suits or goose stepping down Collins St!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5555 –
I'm happy to amend that, MBB. Hopefully EB can explain how the police enforcing a vaccine mandate (which is restricted at this stage to policing aggressive protests and might in future entail attending premises where unvaccinated people react aggressively to being denied entry) would be heavy handed. Should police refuse to enforce the law (as some Sheriffs do in the US)? Let's assume the Victorian Supreme Court rejects attempts to invalidate the mandate. Would it then be okay for the police to intervene if violence or criminal damage is threatened or occurring?

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5556 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Watch the news, police throwing punches football style, a senior police officer just resigned.
@ElwoodBlues1‍ acting a bit like Murdoch and misrepresenting a circumstance doesn't make a perspective right.

The officers own union issued a public statement hope that she gets the help she requires, with a message that concluded with contact details for mental health lines, I suppose not all the officer's duress is applied from one side of the debate, which seems a reasonable position given the area she specifically worked in!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5557 –
It seems you would advocate defunding the police, EB! You know there are many occasions where the police abuse their powers but no doubt you would say that those are the exception not the rule and shouldn't be used to taint the police as a whole. Yet in this case you suggest that examples of police going off on a frolic of their own should be used to taint the laws being enforced and the lawmakers' intentions. Did Dan Andrews urge police to use unlawful force? Maybe you have some private information about that, but it doesn't seem that anything in the public domain would support such a claim.

The difficulty of putting up anecdotal evidence of police that you know is that it's hard to refute what may be patent exaggerations. But in this case I'm happy to call BS. So Dan wanted police to "arrest mums and their kids" in the playground according to your impeccable sources. Really? I'm surprised your sources were in direct contact with him. Do you think that he might have expected fines to be handed out? Maybe you could get some photos of baby-sized handcuffs police were sent to round up offending toddlers.

And it's okay for police to use pepper spray and batons on the streets but not against violent protesters? How did the anti-vaxxers obtain an immunity from methods the police use generally? If you don't like the use of pepper spray and batons, you should be campaigning against their use by police, period. Tell your police mates/family they should refuse to carry them or use them. Make a stand on ethics which isn't situational. 

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5558 –
Quote from: DJC – on
You must watch different TV Thry.  Dr Norman Swan is a regular on the ABC (TV and radio) and responds to questions from the punters.  Many other doctors, epidemiologists, immunologists, scientists, the team that does the modelling for the CHO, the Doherty Institute, the Garvan Institute, etc, etc are also regulars.

All I am trying to say, is compare this to the coverage Megan Markle received when her and Harry shed their royal titles for a moment or the latest series of the bachelor.  I say a proper community engagment Q&A not reporters asking stage managed questions.  If Joe Bloggs from Croydon could send in a question, it would go much further than a reporter asking someone a staged managed question, but I also recognise that these things could be twisted by the wrong people, and that the answers are not clear cut too in some cases which could also cause a bit of a stir (in fact, this might be more of an issue than not).

The ABC isn't quite the place for a lot of the people who would rather watch netflix and pay tv, and I recognise the challenge, but I think there is a disconnect between government and capturing the publics attention, and I point back to the echo chamber that is the internet (and is definately the tool of choice for the people most likely to resist vaccination).

I've found out more information from the show question everything which is rather satirical, and this forum than I have from the idiot box.  There is a reason it has that term, but frankly, thats where this should be run and won.

I know plenty of people who turned off the press conferences, when it became very apparent that they weren't being transparent with what they knew (*but I understand that its difficult to be that transparent when you are quoted as stating you will provide 4000 beds).  I had never heard of Norman Swan until your post as one more example of what I am talking about. 

Quote
The thing is that the conspiracy theorists, anti-vaxxers and neo-nazis are deaf to science and logic.

This is not what these people are.

Anti-Vaxxers.  They are not instituting the final solution.  Most of them actually live their lives a bit like hippies.  They eat clean, they grow their own produce, they shop at farmers markets, they buy natural remedies, they try and stay organic, they have gluten/fodmap diets and intolerances or generally just a bit of different (note, different, not better or worse) view of what is healthy for people.  They are very conscious of what goes into their bodies and dont necessarily believe that modern medicine is out to help people because unfortunately, we live a very consumer based lifestyle, and lots of our modern medicines are synthetic versions of naturally occurring things that are being monetised in the health system (according to them, I recognise, that this is not 100% correct, but there are circumstances where it is).  These are the people I know of.  They live in green wedge, and try and get outdoors, walk around in nature barefoot to ground themselves and believe that community is important, and they have been isolated from their support networks.  They do tend to get hoodwinked by the Qanon conspiracies, and believe in a bunch of crap to go with it, but they do no harm to others and tend to look at most of the Trumpish stuff from the sidelines (genuinely the people I know, are your stand up, walk hard, corporate white collar types) but have genuinely been left with a feeling of not knowing what to believe anymore.

Neo-nazis.  Who are these people?  Where do you find them, and what subset of society do they actually occupy?  The answer, is that this is a throw away term to label people who just dont see the world the way people do.  Conspiracy theorists...  Its the year 2021, and we label a hair dryer with warning labels, not to use in the shower.  Some of them are just idiotic, but the reality is, that the internet is a powerful propaganda tool, and instagram is perpetuating false body images to people who should and do know better, but cannot see past the filters because of a trigger it gives them.  Flat earthers are a thing again, because some very convincing arguments make their way onto the internet, until you remember about the story of Eratosthenes, and how he was able to guess the circumference of the earth within a very small variance of error, just by measuring the suns shadow. 

I prefer to put these people in a different camp.  They are just like those suffering with poor mental health.  They usually latch onto these things, to explain away part of life that they cannot rationalise in their own minds.

How do we deal with people suffering with their mental health?  We dont judge them, we support them, we listen to them, and once they feel heard, usually they start to heal and will come along.

Mav stated something earlier about the mandates abroad.  These sections of society exist everywhere, and there are varying degrees with how this will be policed.  In Greece, the majority of the country has been non smoking for the last 20 years but it was common to see people smoking right next to a no smoking sign with no ramification.  The cultures are different, and there are better ways to bring these people to the party.  Hell, letting them have the experience of finding out a loved one got sick with COVID, will make it real enough for them to buy in, and these guys are not going to flood the system.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson
 

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5559 –
There is SOOO much to play out here, it is becoming really serious.  The wagons are circling.




  

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5560 –
I’m glad to see there’s support for minority vetoes over laws passed by democratically-elected governments and legislatures. But it shouldn’t be just a right-wing veto. For instance, union-busting legislation should be ignored. By all means, allow courts to issue orders pursuant to those laws but those orders shouldn’t be enforced at all. Everyone should treat them as if they were just opinion letters published in newspapers and the police should just refuse to enforce them. Fair’s fair, after all.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5561 –
Quote from: LP – on
@ElwoodBlues1‍ acting a bit like Murdoch and misrepresenting a circumstance doesn't make a perspective right.

The officers own union issued a public statement hope that she gets the help she requires, with a message that concluded with contact details for mental health lines, I suppose not all the officer's duress is applied from one side of the debate, which seems a reasonable position given the area she specifically worked in!

Everyone has agendas.

The ABC labelled some youtube streamer called the real Ruskan Fake News! This dude just walks around filming protests live unedited, he barely speaks lol.

How is that fake?
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5562 –
Quote from: Mav – on
I'm happy to amend that, MBB. Hopefully EB can explain how the police enforcing a vaccine mandate (which is restricted at this stage to policing aggressive protests and might in future entail attending premises where unvaccinated people react aggressively to being denied entry) would be heavy handed. Should police refuse to enforce the law (as some Sheriffs do in the US)? Let's assume the Victorian Supreme Court rejects attempts to invalidate the mandate. Would it then be okay for the police to intervene if violence or criminal damage is threatened or occurring?

I'm fine with law and order applied across the board.

Violent protesters- arrest.
Peaceful protesters- let them go.

There was one protest a while ago that the police told them to move on. The group all moved on their separate ways to their train lines but the cops followed one group and attacked them, unprovoked.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5563 –
I'd also be happy to let peaceful protesters go (save I'd draw a line at neo-nazis marching thru the streets with Tiki torches yelling anti-semitic slogans). But while I don't condone police use of excessive force, exposing a wider segment of the community to it means it's not so easy for it to be ignored.  It was probably a bit of an eye-opener for EB, for instance.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #5564 –
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria-s-outbreak-response-a-template-for-what-not-to-do-20211012-p58z5n.html

Crisis reveals character and can lead to political revolutions. The Long Depression of the late 1800s sent shockwaves around the globe and, in The Origins of Totalitarianism, Hannah Arendt credits it with giving birth to the New Imperialism that drove the dire scramble for Africa.

The depression hit Australia hard in the 1890s fomenting a brutal confrontation between employers and trade unions that gave birth to the Australian Labor Party.

In the run-up to Federation, the division that animated politics in Australia’s colonies was the split between the Free Traders, who held sway in NSW, and the Protectionists, who dominated Victoria. The power of labour lay not in colonial parliaments but in its unions.

The battle between bosses and workers exploded in June 1890 when a wrenching maritime strike began with wharfies refusing to handle wool that had been shorn by non-union labour.

A 13-year-old Jack Lang witnessed a clash outside his home on Sydney’s Liverpool Street, as workers tipped wool bales off wagons bound for the port. In I Remember, the future Labor premier recounts that a delegation of employers implored acting Premier Sir William McMillan to issue arms to the troops and put down what they called “an insurrection”. McMillan agreed but an appalled Sir Henry Parkes left his sickbed to countermand the order, reprimanding McMillan whose political career never recovered.

Attitudes were different in Victoria. There, Cabinet ordered the troops to arms and “the city [was] placarded with the Unlawful Assemblies Act”.

On the evening of August 30, ahead of a trade union rally the next day, the commanding officer of the Victorian Mounted Rifles, Lieutenant Colonel Tom Price, addressed his men in a speech that that would ricochet around the nation.

“Let there be no half measures,” the colonel said. “You will each be supplied with forty rounds of ammunition and leaden bullets, and if the order is given to fire don’t let me see one rifle pointed up in the air. Fire low and lay them out ...lay the disturbers of law and order out so that the duty will not again have to be performed. Let it be a lesson to them.”

The protest was peaceful and the Victorian Premier, of course, disavowed the sentiment uttered by the offending officer he had ordered on to the streets.

Much has changed in 131 years and much appears to be much the same. Responding to the same crisis, NSW and Victoria have cut different paths. In the eyes of the neo-protectionist “progressives”, the great crime of former premier Gladys Berejiklian was to have a “mockdown”; that is to err on the side of leaving her people free for as long as possible.

Happily we got to witness a real-time, real-world example of the many benefits of a proper lockdown in a demographically identical jurisdiction. Its world-leading exponent, Victorian Premier Dan Andrews, rolled off the bench to fire low and lay the disease out.

And the evidence is in. When the lockdowns are lined up from day zero NSW did significantly better than Victoria on every day in both suppressing the disease and in lifting the vaccination rate. There has also been less civil disorder.

It turns out that when you reflexively imprison people they get sick of it. Some take to the streets in protest and, clearly, a great many others just silently disobey the absurd demands of their overlords. When the dust settles on this pandemic and the world assesses how to deal with a future crisis Victoria will be used as a template of what not to do.

Through Berejiklian and now Dominic Perrottet, NSW is beating the trail for Australia because no matter what the COVID-free states might believe, they are behind, not ahead, on the path out. One day, they will have to exit by the same door. Their great advantage is time, and they are squandering it by not forcing the pace of vaccination.

Soon a royal commission should be called into the COVID-19 responses of all Australian governments, with the sole aim of learning from our successes and mistakes.

That is what Parkes did in an effort to trace the causes of the strikes. It led to the establishment of the first machinery of conciliation and arbitration. Lang recalled that Parkes was invited to address a trade union conference where he offered some telling advice.

“Instead of breaking the law, why don’t you send your own members into Parliament and make the laws so that there will be no need to break them,” Parkes said.

The first branch of what would become the Australian Labor Party was formed in Balmain and 52 candidates were selected to contest the 1891 NSW election. Just months later, in their first electoral battle, the nascent party won 35 seats.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!