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The Last Dance

I have been watching "The Last Dance" the Michael Jordan doco series on Netflix and comparing it to what we see at Carlton.  Their attitude and self belief is compelling in building The Chicago Bulls basketball team. 

In one season Jordan (and Pittman) were being physically smashed.  The Bulls realised that they need a physical "gangster" to protect their talent - so enter the "scary" Dennis Rodman.  Looking at the Judd period (and through to Cripps) we needed the same toughness to look after our elite - so we give Mitch Robinson his marching orders (he is exactly they type of player we need in our centre lineup with Cripps)...

Bring on some attitude!!
"...that's the thing about opinion - you don't have to know anything to have one..."  Andre Agassi commenting on Pat Cash 2004
"...the less you know - the more you believe..." - Bono 2006

Re: The Last Dance

Reply #1
WW, I can't believe our club hasn't addressed this give how long it's been obvious to so many fans.

I feel our leadership group is stuck in the "safe workplace" mindset, play fair and be fairly treated in return.

But in AFL all that makes you is a roadside shooting victim, because as an industry AFL full of narcissistic bastards like Dangerfield, people who'd drive over their own mother to get in front of a camera!
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Last Dance

Reply #2
WW, I can't believe our club hasn't addressed this give how long it's been obvious to so many fans.

I feel our leadership group is stuck in the "safe workplace" mindset, play fair and be fairly treated in return.

But in AFL all that makes you is a roadside shooting victim, because as an industry AFL full of narcissistic bastards like Dangerfield, people who'd drive over their own mother to get in front of a camera!
I have been watching "The Last Dance" the Michael Jordan doco series on Netflix and comparing it to what we see at Carlton.  Their attitude and self belief is compelling in building The Chicago Bulls basketball team. 

In one season Jordan (and Pittman) were being physically smashed.  The Bulls realised that they need a physical "gangster" to protect their talent - so enter the "scary" Dennis Rodman.  Looking at the Judd period (and through to Cripps) we needed the same toughness to look after our elite - so we give Mitch Robinson his marching orders (he is exactly they type of player we need in our centre lineup with Cripps)...

Bring on some attitude!!
I think you mean Pippen, I any case we knew who you meant. I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that you need to bring in muscle or attitude, it can be developed within. I mean if it were me, I would only stand for that crap (being bullied around) for so long before I flick the switch and arc up. I know Crippa is big unit but he was pretty mild and meek when he started out, try and push his buttons now. There isnt much of Doc and Simmo, they fire up. There has to be self motivation by the others at some point, to follow their lead. This group is talented, how much to they want success is what I want to know. We dont need muscle or attitude brought it, we need Crippa and Doc drive the 120% desire to win at all costs (ala MJ). Rodman was a hard ass for sure, but he was extremely talented defensively (probably one of the best of all time). He understood ball movement and ball flight like no one else. Pippen also stood up to the bullying by Detroit eventually, it sent the message. Our blokes can do it, they just have to want to enough.
Brilliant doco by the way, I will never be convinced MJ isn't the GOAT.
2017 - Bigger, Stronger, Faster, Harder, Smarter. #ruthless
2018 - Could be a long year...
2019 - The Empire Strikes Back
2020 - No more BS, no more excuses, it's time.

Re: The Last Dance

Reply #3
Pippen was a gun and way under rated, just a joke what the Bulls paid him and got away with so long. Without Pippen the Bulls would have been just another one player team.

re: Muscle and grunt.....IMO we dont have it and are one of the weakest teams grunt wise in the comp and are lucky its an era with lots of cameras and eyes watching as we would be knocked around more most weeks.
Pittonet is a good start but we need a couple of Robbo's who can play and look after their teammates.....
GWS have all the skill in the world but everyone knows they can be got at it and apart from Greene they dont fight back and thats
why they have to drag the slow/ageing carcass of Mumford out each season and have him fly the flag.
You need some mongrel and spite to win premierships, not so much to be the aggressor but to be able to fight back where necessary and hold your ground.
I joke when I call our kids the Von Trapps but we really need to stop recruiting nice kids and get a few nasty ones who can dish it out..hence I was keen on the wrecking ball Will Gould from Glenelg who is now at the Swans.


Re: The Last Dance

Reply #4
I'm hoping Willo hasn't lost his edge through injury, in his early games he showed some real aggro!

I specifically recall a game early in his career when he stood up to Franklin and Hannebury when they targeted Alex Silvagni, and it helped fire up Weitering, Plowman and others on the day.
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Last Dance

Reply #5
I think you mean Pippen, I any case we knew who you meant.

Thanks GIC...how can I make a typo out of that?? DUH!!
"...that's the thing about opinion - you don't have to know anything to have one..."  Andre Agassi commenting on Pat Cash 2004
"...the less you know - the more you believe..." - Bono 2006

Re: The Last Dance

Reply #6
I think you mean Pippen, I any case we knew who you meant. I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that you need to bring in muscle or attitude, it can be developed within. I mean if it were me, I would only stand for that crap (being bullied around) for so long before I flick the switch and arc up. I know Crippa is big unit but he was pretty mild and meek when he started out, try and push his buttons now. There isnt much of Doc and Simmo, they fire up. There has to be self motivation by the others at some point, to follow their lead. This group is talented, how much to they want success is what I want to know. We dont need muscle or attitude brought it, we need Crippa and Doc drive the 120% desire to win at all costs (ala MJ). Rodman was a hard ass for sure, but he was extremely talented defensively (probably one of the best of all time). He understood ball movement and ball flight like no one else. Pippen also stood up to the bullying by Detroit eventually, it sent the message. Our blokes can do it, they just have to want to enough.
Brilliant doco by the way, I will never be convinced MJ isn't the GOAT.

I’d have Jordan at four behind Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar.

I agree about Rodman being on of the best defensive players of all time and I think that is an important point; you don’t bring in a player just because he has attitude.

In some ways, this comes back to the debate about our salary cap penalties; our players have missed out on the experience of playing with quality hard men (not that we would necessarily have drafted the right blokes).

Brereton’s recent article about his time with Collingwood was interesting.  Matthews basically recruited him to teach Sav Rocca how to deal with the thugs that were playing as fullbacks at that time.  I wish that we had had the nous to get Hodge or Lewis to finish their careers with us.

That said, I think that the worm is starting to turn and we have plenty of players who will not only stand up for themselves and their teammates but will dish it out.

Finally, I can’t agree with Wet Willie and others who think that Mitch Robinson is hard.  Have a look at his clash with Hodge; the latter was very amused by Robbo’s inept attack 🙁
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be . . .

Re: The Last Dance

Reply #7
Hodge was a vicious and nasty,  and very calculated, thug.   His attempt to dump Wingard into the post was a criminal act.

Funny how there's a whole raft of players admired for their so-called "hardness" who got away with a litany of dog acts..... Chapman,  Baker and couple of tigers are some that spring to mind. 

That's not tough,  that's weak as p1ss in my mind.   I hate him with a passion but blokes like  Hird epitomised tough I reckon... Belted from pillar to post on field and still kept going. They're the kind of blokes you need.
DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: The Last Dance

Reply #8
re: Robbo......played with courage and wasnt a sniper, came off second best vs Hodge in that incident but would always stand his ground and back up his teammates. His tackling and workrate was a feature...Lewis was a sniper who ran for cover when the real tough stuff started. No doubt Hodge was a tough hombre but also picked off players when he could, interesting relationship with Hodge and Robbo. When Robbo got chopped the Hawks were interested and Robbo rang Hodge for some advice and the Hawks skipper was good to him and happy to oblige with advice for the future. When Hodge went to Brisbane I believe he reacquainted himself with Robbo on the training track and they had a couple of incidents which Fagan put down to good spirited contesting, I got told it was a bit more than that and they both had a good swing at each other and had to be separated.
I think Hodge would have been good for us in these rebuilding times and picking up a similar type for a couple of years might help
us jump up the ladder and toughen a few players up.

Re: The Last Dance

Reply #9
Yep EB,  you summed up beautifully Hodge as a "tough hombre but didn't miss an opportunity to take a player out".  Lewis was similar, reminded me of a classic Essenscum player of the past, used to ruck rove.... O'Donnell?   We used to call him "petrol"....started it,  then evaporated quickly when the fire really started. Sly and weak as p1ss.

Another was Billy Brownless....great at jumping from behind.  Pushes Christou into the fence on the half time siren in the '95 GF then packs his dacks when  Rice comes to retaliate.  Mi-ow.
DrE is no more... you ok with that harmonica man?

Re: The Last Dance

Reply #10
Always believed that you never let bullies or thugs get off lightly. Even if you eventually lose the fight always make them pay a big price - they'll think twice before coming back a second time.
Reality is when you stop believing in something it doesn’t go away.......

Re: The Last Dance

Reply #11
Always believed that you never let bullies or thugs get off lightly. Even if you eventually lose the fight always make them pay a big price - they'll think twice before coming back a second time.
If everybody stands up to the bully the accumulated toll the bully must pay is far greater than the individual victim.

Something to keep in mind as we watch old footage of Henderson and Tuohy jogging by as Murphy gets pummelled, I'll never forgive or forget!
The Force Awakens!

Re: The Last Dance

Reply #12
Hodge was a vicious and nasty,  and very calculated, thug.   His attempt to dump Wingard into the post was a criminal act.

Funny how there's a whole raft of players admired for their so-called "hardness" who got away with a litany of dog acts..... Chapman,  Baker and couple of tigers are some that spring to mind. 

That's not tough,  that's weak as p1ss in my mind.   I hate him with a passion but blokes like  Hird epitomised tough I reckon... Belted from pillar to post on field and still kept going. They're the kind of blokes you need.
I hate him 1,000,000 times more, an overrated hack who is named in the same company as Judd because of the super draft. He may have premiership medallions but he wouldnt tie Judd's shoe laces. Agree on Hird also.
2017 - Bigger, Stronger, Faster, Harder, Smarter. #ruthless
2018 - Could be a long year...
2019 - The Empire Strikes Back
2020 - No more BS, no more excuses, it's time.

Re: The Last Dance

Reply #13
If everybody stands up to the bully the accumulated toll the bully must pay is far greater than the individual victim.

Something to keep in mind as we watch old footage of Henderson and Tuohy jogging by as Murphy gets pummelled, I'll never forgive or forget!
Well there are two names of blokes who would sleep with the lights on IMO. Wouldnt know how to fight there way out of a water paper bag.
2017 - Bigger, Stronger, Faster, Harder, Smarter. #ruthless
2018 - Could be a long year...
2019 - The Empire Strikes Back
2020 - No more BS, no more excuses, it's time.

Re: The Last Dance

Reply #14
I have been watching "The Last Dance" the Michael Jordan doco series on Netflix and comparing it to what we see at Carlton.  Their attitude and self belief is compelling in building The Chicago Bulls basketball team. 

In one season Jordan (and Pittman) were being physically smashed.  The Bulls realised that they need a physical "gangster" to protect their talent - so enter the "scary" Dennis Rodman.  Looking at the Judd period (and through to Cripps) we needed the same toughness to look after our elite - so we give Mitch Robinson his marching orders (he is exactly they type of player we need in our centre lineup with Cripps)...

Bring on some attitude!!

100% agree with your premise - most great teams have some mongrel, and we are lacking!

But, just to clarify the timeline;
- bulls got beaten up by the pistons in 88-90
- offseason prior to 90/91 season Jordan starts hitting the weight room
- 91 the bulls beat the pistons and overcome the bully on the way to first 3 rings
- Rodman doesn’t join until the 2nd 3peat (95/96 - 97/98)

The bulls had long ago pushed the bully pistons aside, before Rodman joined