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Topic: The rise.... and RISE of Marc Pittonet (Read 96240 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #150 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
@djc
Someone, maybe Northern blue? Has pointed out that the hitout to advantage stat is about if it reaches the target. Not if the player gets it.
That is, if the player fumbles, is bumped off the ball or $h!t5 a brick in the process.
By the same token, if a ruck hits it to a 50-50, and cripps dominates Nd gets the ball and clearance, it's still not a hitout to advantage.

It's a pure stat.

The ball has to reach the intended target.  That relies on the ruckman directing the ball accurately and the intended target moving to where the ball is hit.  If the intended target slips, is blocked, is too slow, misjudges the ball’s trajectory, or is beaten to the ball, the ruckman’s efforts are in vain and it’s not a hitout to advantage. 

Alternatively, a ruckman can hit the ball randomly and his midfielder picks the flight and gets to the ball.  That’s a hitout to advantage due solely to the midfielder’s skill/effort/luck.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #151 –
Quote from: DJC – on
The ball has to reach the intended target.  That relies on the ruckman directing the ball accurately and the intended target moving to where the ball is hit.  If the intended target slips, is blocked, is too slow, misjudges the ball’s trajectory, or is beaten to the ball, the ruckman’s efforts are in vain and it’s not a hitout to advantage. 

Alternatively, a ruckman can hit the ball randomly and his midfielder picks the flight and gets to the ball.  That’s a hitout to advantage due solely to the midfielder’s skill/effort/luck.
Exactly why it is the most bogus stat in AFL.

The ball could flip a rucks finger, hit him in the face and bounce to a passing team-mate and be credited as a tap to advantage. The statisticians can't even know if the recipient was the intended target.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #152 –
Quote from: DJC – on
The ball has to reach the intended target.  That relies on the ruckman directing the ball accurately and the intended target moving to where the ball is hit.  If the intended target slips, is blocked, is too slow, misjudges the ball’s trajectory, or is beaten to the ball, the ruckman’s efforts are in vain and it’s not a hitout to advantage. 

Alternatively, a ruckman can hit the ball randomly and his midfielder picks the flight and gets to the ball.  That’s a hitout to advantage due solely to the midfielder’s skill/effort/luck.
That is your interpretation of it and not the official statistical definition of it.

It's like people talking about the theory of relativity. It's 'only a theory'.
Different contexts, different interpretations.


....but for the sake of argument, let's go with what you think.
Would pitto, tdk and soj not be hitting to the same.midfielders anyway. So that variation on how good the midfielders are is balanced out amongst our own players.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #153 –
The problem for the stats people is that all the games can be replayed, you can do so at 1/2 speed if you like, and the discrepancies between what you see and what they record is astounding, it really exposes the subjectivity of the data process.

Plus you have the official source which uses AFL definitions, and competing sources that use definitions more closely based in language.

For example, the biggest most obvious contradiction you can find is "contested", the official stat requires no physical contact at all, in fact you only have to be within a step or so away yet not within arms reach to be contesting! So a defender who is done cold by the leading forward is contesting, and the forwards mark 100% free of physical contact is contested.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #154 –
Is there a ruck stat for conceding hit outs to advantage or clearances?
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #155 –
Quote from: LP – on
The problem for the stats people is that all the games can be replayed, you can do so at 1/2 speed if you like, and the discrepancies between what you see and what they record is astounding, it really exposes the subjectivity of the data process.

Plus you have the official source which uses AFL definitions, and competing sources that use definitions more closely based in language.

For example, the biggest most obvious contradiction you can find is "contested", the official stat requires no physical contact at all, in fact you only have to be within a step or so away yet not within arms reach to be contesting! So a defender who is done cold by the leading forward is contesting, and the forwards mark 100% free of physical contact is contested.
If you actually notice that hitouts to advantage are not available in real time. Generally only available after the game.
This is due to the scrutiny that certain stats require.

Your example is exactly as I was saying, a statically definition vs a layman's understanding.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #157 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
That is your interpretation of it and not the official statistical definition of it.

It's like people talking about the theory of relativity. It's 'only a theory'.
Different contexts, different interpretations.


....but for the sake of argument, let's go with what you think.
Would pitto, tdk and soj not be hitting to the same.midfielders anyway. So that variation on how good the midfielders are is balanced out amongst our own players.

The official definition is "A hit-out that reaches an intended teammate."  There's certainly a lot of grey there and one stats taker may credit hitouts to advantage where another will mark them as just hitouts ... just like many other footy stats.

When Jack is rucking, our midfielders set up defensively with the intention of either sharking the opposition ruck's tap or tackling the opposition midfielder who takes possession.  They may also do that when our rucks are losing the hitouts or they may run a set play at selected stoppages.  Different factors come into play at centre bounces, ball-ups and throw-ins, particularly throw-ins close to goal.  The only common factor is that two rucks compete for a ball in the air.  It's an indicative statistic rather than a definitive statistic.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #158 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
If you actually notice that hitouts to advantage are not available in real time. Generally only available after the game.
This is due to the scrutiny that certain stats require.

Your example is exactly as I was saying, a statically definition vs a layman's understanding.

Yet the commentators cite hitout to advantage stats during the commentary  :-\

I suspect that the stats just aren't available to the punters.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #159 –
Just to recap, we have one of the best clearance players in the comp who was labelled the extractor.  You could ruck a crap ruckman to him, provided the ball hits him, and Cripps gets the clearance, then that's a tap to advantage correct?  Add Walsh, and im not sure it says much about any of our rucks capabilities over the last little while. 

I know what I see on game day, and against North, it was Goldstein monstoring us.  Against Adelaide it was O'Reilly. 

For all this debate going round in circles, our rucks dont dominate, they put in a respectable performance.

That goes for TDK, Pitto, or JSOS, but Pitto at this stage is the one that probably plays best on my subjective viewing of football. 

THERE< screw what the stats show.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #160 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Just to recap, we have one of the best clearance players in the comp who was labelled the extractor.  You could ruck a crap ruckman to him, provided the ball hits him, and Cripps gets the clearance, then that's a tap to advantage correct?  Add Walsh, and im not sure it says much about any of our rucks capabilities over the last little while. 

I know what I see on game day, and against North, it was Goldstein monstoring us.  Against Adelaide it was O'Reilly. 

For all this debate going round in circles, our rucks dont dominate, they put in a respectable performance.

That goes for TDK, Pitto, or JSOS, but Pitto at this stage is the one that probably plays best on my subjective viewing of football. 

THERE< screw what the stats show.
Our rucks will never be dominating rucks like the best in the comp, we are looking for that Stanley/Blicavs type effort where they break even and try and be handy around the ball.
Frampton had nearly as many hitouts as Marshall last week but got slaughtered around the ground and I want more from TDK/Pitto around the ground than worrying too much about hitouts. We have a good midfield full of contested mids and Id like to think we can still win our fair share of ball even losing the ruck contests.
If Marshall gets 25 possies again this week then we will be up against it so its up to TDK and Pittonet to prevent that happening more than winning every ruck contest imo.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #161 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
THERE< screw what the stats show.
If you ignore the tap stats and watch everything else they do, you'll come to the very same conclusion. ;)

That is a tell about the value of tap stats! ;D
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #162 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Yet the commentators cite hitout to advantage stats during the commentary  :-\

I suspect that the stats just aren't available to the punters.
Yes, but its somewhat retrospective.

Rather than at the time.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #163 –
Quote from: LP – on
If you ignore the tap stats and watch everything else they do, you'll come to the very same conclusion. ;)

That is a tell about the value of tap stats! ;D
Which is your opinion.

I'm debated many different people who are making many different arguments.

To combat you...
Jack does more around the ground than TDK does.

If you ignore the flashes of high marking ATTEMPTS that TDK makes....there is very little substance to the rest of his game.
He looks good, but doesn't actually do much.

Jack looks average, but does more than you think.
If i wasn't commenting on the clearance stats he was getting during the game, would anyone have noticed? 2nd and 3rd efforts, smothers etc don't show on a stat sheet, but SOJ never dies wondering.....TDK is a ball watcher.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #164 –
I was replying to the post game, but thought it'd be best here....

Quote from: PaulP – on
Just watched the Voss presser. Said Tom De Koning was ill earlier in the week and couldn't train.

Did we miss him today?

Did anyone at any point in time think, "Geez, i wish we had TDK right now"

For all the talk about 2 rucks, TDK vs Jack etc.....we didn't miss him one bit.

Guess how many ruck contests Jack Silvagni was in today?
*tick tock tick tock*
Times up!
Answer: ZERO. Did not contest a single throw-in, ball up or centre bounce.

FWIW, Pittonet dominated - 61 ruck contests, 27 hitouts, but a massive 18 hitouts to advantage!
But how does that compare? Well TDK has had a total of 24 hitouts to advantage in 5 full games this year.

For those playing at home....
Young took 13 ruck contests - 7 hitouts and 4 hitouts to advantage!
Harry took 4 ruck contests - 1 hitout, none to advantage
Cripps took 1, for 1 and none.

Pittonet rucks for 77% of the ruck contests. From the other 23% our 'hacks' 18 ruck contests, won half with 9 hitouts, and 4 went to advantage.
TDK last week had 57 ruck contests, 17 hitouts, but only 4 went to advantage.
Our backups were as effective as TDK, despite have 1/3 the amount of attempts TDK had last week.

Surely, you can see what i've been saying that TDK offers us little that we cannot get elsewhere and until he steps up and lives up to his athletic freakish abilities, he is not worth playing.