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Topic: The rise.... and RISE of Marc Pittonet (Read 96302 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #135 –
Id give Mirkov a go, nothing ventured...nothing gained. Its not like TDK, Pitto and JSOS have been hitting it out of the park ruck wise so trying something very different in small doses to start with might give us an edge vs some teams.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #136 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Id give Mirkov a go, nothing ventured...nothing gained. Its not like TDK, Pitto and JSOS have been hitting it out of the park ruck wise so trying something very different in small doses to start with might give us an edge vs some teams.
So TDK and Pittos ruck stats are at the low end of league totals for HO, HO Win % (HOW%) and HO To Adv% (HOA%)

Pitto 73 HO 50.3% HOW% 37% HTA%
SOS 8 HO 17% HOW%  37.5% HTA%
TDK 91 HO 38% HOW%  26.4% HTA%

To give you an idea, leading the pack with HO and HOW% is
Sean Darcy 204 HO 62% HOW%  27.5% HTA%
Leading the pack of recognised ruckman for HTA% is
Todd Goldstien 122 HO 42.2% HOW%  39.3% HTA%
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #137 –
No matter how good a ruck is, it's the 1%ers, blocks, shepherds, etc., etc., that make the difference as the other players those 1%ers release will always cover more ground and spread faster than the ruck. If a ruck just watches team-mates get tackled they are a liability!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #138 –
You want your rucks to be involved in the game. I have always found Brodie Grundy very passive. He is not a player who has got involved in games. When he is around the ball he is good but the rest of the time he is a bit of a statue. Silvagni, whom is more of a follower than a ruck gets into the packs, tackles and shepherds, but it would be good if his kicking improved. TDK and Pittonett do involve themselves but I think Pitto is still struggling with his knee a bit. I think TDK should be using his pace more and should make himself more of a marking option around the ground. A lot of the problem with the rucks gets back to our midfield lacking pace and not being clean with their hands so when we don't get the ball we can't get it back and when we do get the ball we are not being effective with it.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #139 –
Quote from: Blue Moon – on
You want your rucks to be involved in the game. I have always found Brodie Grundy very passive. He is not a player who has got involved in games. When he is around the ball he is good but the rest of the time he is a bit of a statue. Silvagni, whom is more of a follower than a ruck gets into the packs, tackles and shepherds, but it would be good if his kicking improved. TDK and Pittonett do involve themselves but I think Pitto is still struggling with his knee a bit. I think TDK should be using his pace more and should make himself more of a marking option around the ground. A lot of the problem with the rucks gets back to our midfield lacking pace and not being clean with their hands so when we don't get the ball we can't get it back and when we do get the ball we are not being effective with it.
Grundy had one, maybe 2 seasons where he was really involved. In those seasons he was probably the best ruckman going around. He hasn't really been able to reproduce that form. Not sure he has ever wanted it enough, to be honest.
Gawn is the one who is always involved in the game. It is one of his real strengths.

Tom de Koning has the tools to be really good, but I wonder sometimes if he has the smarts. Against Sydney last year, he played the sort of game we want him to play. He did his best in the ruck, but it was around the grounds that he really made a difference. He got into good spots and held his marks. He has never quite been able to reproduce that. If he can, at least some of our problems will go away.
Pitto has not been able to outbody his opponents like he did last year. The reason is obvious; his knee. He will get better at it, but that is probably going to be next year, assuming no further issues with it. He has always been a competitor and has been a contributor around the packs. But it would be nice if he could find some real form.
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #140 –
Quote from: crashlander – on
Grundy had one, maybe 2 seasons where he was really involved. In those seasons he was probably the best ruckman going around. He hasn't really been able to reproduce that form. Not sure he has ever wanted it enough, to be honest.
Gawn is the one who is always involved in the game. It is one of his real strengths.

Tom de Koning has the tools to be really good, but I wonder sometimes if he has the smarts. Against Sydney last year, he played the sort of game we want him to play. He did his best in the ruck, but it was around the grounds that he really made a difference. He got into good spots and held his marks. He has never quite been able to reproduce that. If he can, at least some of our problems will go away.
Pitto has not been able to outbody his opponents like he did last year. The reason is obvious; his knee. He will get better at it, but that is probably going to be next year, assuming no further issues with it. He has always been a competitor and has been a contributor around the packs. But it would be nice if he could find some real form.
I feel Tom is trying too hard to manufacture a highlight reel for his contract negotiations as opposed to being a good team member. If he did the team thing, the contract negotiations will take care of themselves.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #141 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
So TDK and Pittos ruck stats are at the low end of league totals for HO, HO Win % (HOW%) and HO To Adv% (HOA%)

Pitto 73 HO 50.3% HOW% 37% HTA%
SOS 8 HO 17% HOW%  37.5% HTA%
TDK 91 HO 38% HOW%  26.4% HTA%

To give you an idea, leading the pack with HO and HOW% is
Sean Darcy 204 HO 62% HOW%  27.5% HTA%
Leading the pack of recognised ruckman for HTA% is
Todd Goldstien 122 HO 42.2% HOW%  39.3% HTA%

We should be targeting a decent ruck NOW.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #142 –
Quote from: Slowhand – on
We should be targeting a decent ruck NOW.
Statistically at least, our rucks right now are way off the mark.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #143 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Statistically at least, our rucks right now are way off the mark.
They are out of form, partly it's due to the changes in the way the ruck is being umpired, TDK was being slammed early in the season for stuff that was OK last season. The way the AFL Interpret the rules is bullsh1t, just umpire the rules as they are written, and penalise infringements.

At the moment, with all the umpires out there you get stuff happening like last Thursday, when in one moment TDK is pinged for blocking O'Brien, and a few moments later a different umpire let's O'Brien do the very same thing to TDK without penalty. It's too much touchy feely rubbish, just umpire the rules.

And FFS, do not listen to Scott whinging about his bloke Blicsav getting hurt because he won't jump or has bad knees or whatever sh1t reason it may be! Blicsav doesn't jump because he wants to run off after the tap without being penalised for blocking, not because of some weird excuse about what opponents do!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #144 –
How good is a player as a ruck?  Not around the ground, but throw the ball up in the air and getting it to a teammate. Back to basics stuff.

People try and evaluate this and look at 1 stat column.....the wrong stat column.....hitouts.
Now, some people are starting to learn to look at hitouts to advantage....but that doesn't tell the whole story. Why? Someone who rucks for 80% of the game will get more hitouts to advantage than someone who rucks for 20% of the game. Sydney will have more ruck contests due to their style of play and the size of their ground compared to say west coast. So how do we compare apples with apples?
Its a stat/ratio/percentage i came up with a few years ago that people didn't embrace and/or understand.

So let me make this very simple.....then i'll give examples.
If you want to know how likely a ruckman is going to give your player the ball via hitout you simple need to work out how many total ruck contests he attends. Once you know that, you work out how many total hitouts to advantage he has. End result is what % of ruck contests that this player attends will result in a hitout to advantage - ie ruck contest you hit to your own player.

If a certain player takes the ruck, XX% of the time it goes to us. Aka, 'Ruck contest to advantage' aka 'RCA%'
Its so simple, i don't know why its not used as an actual stat.

So here are sprinkling of players that are largely regarded as either great rucks, (former) Carlton players, or KP/rucks...or a combination of.

Player (RCA%) - Career stats - all players have had a minimum of 100 career ruck contests.
Gawn (18%)
Sean Darcy (16.2)
Nic Nat (15.7)
Pittonet (14.5)
Grundy (14.3)
A. Phillips (13.2)
TDK (10.5)
English (9.7)
Silvagni (9.0)
Franklin (9.0)
Young (8.7)
Hawkins (7.1)
Naughton (6.1)
J. Riewoldt (4.9)
H. McKay (4.6)

So thats the data. That is AFL stats. No doctoring/omitting of figures. Its up to you to work out what that means.

In terms of Carlton....i take 2 things out of that.

1. Pittonet is (still) underrated in ruck craft. In 2023, he was going at 18.6% before he got injured, which is better than every other person on the list.....including all those AA's....and he was coming off a poor off-season. In 2022, he was 3rd behind Darcy and Gawn (yes, still ahead of Grundy....)

2. Silvagni is (still) underrated in ruck craft compared to TDK. For all Jacks 'limitations' compared to TDK, out of 100 contests, he will be 1.5 hitouts to advantage behind TDK thats it. He will get more clearances once the ball hits the deck than TDK to quickly make up for it and get extras as well. IMO, he also offers much more around the ground as well. Unfortunately, stats wise its a lot harder to compare without making assumptions.


Now once again, this is a RUCK CONTEST comparison only.
Debate about who is the best ruckman often centers around how good they are around the ground,
The only thing needed for a complete picture is the flip side of that, which the AFL do not keep track of, and that is 'ruck contests resulting in a hitout to advantage for the opposition team.' Thats equivalent to RC to advantage for and RC to advantage against. Maybe in a few years, the AFL will adopt my stat, and introduce the opposing one. Then we can get a fair comparison for the first time in history.

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #145 –
Make him full time ruck then, when he gets tired Motlop can pinch hit.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #147 –
Jack silvagni in the ruck works less the more he does it. 

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #148 –
As LP is fond of pointing out, there are problems with the hitouts to advantage statistic (that is, hitouts that reach the intended target … but how do those who record the stats know who was the target?).

Tom could palm the ball to Crippa’s advantage but if Crippa slips or is bumped off the ball, it’s not a hitout to advantage.  Similarly, if Tom palms the ball to Crippa who is tackled and free-kicked for holding the ball, Tom is credited with a hitout to advantage and the opposition gets the clearance.

Then there’s a clean possession from a ruck contest.  I believe that counts as a contested possession, not a hitout, as does a sharked opposition hitout.

There’s also hitouts that gain territory, hitouts that force another stoppage, nullifying the opposition ruck’s hitouts, forcing the opposition ruck to hit to areas that advantage our midfielders and milking frees for ruck infringements.

Clearances is probably a better statistic for determining a ruckman’s contribution but, like hitouts to advantage, it relies on the efforts of others.

The best tap ruckmen don’t just get hitouts to advantage, they guarantee clearances and create scoring opportunities.  Paddy Ryder was one of the best exponents in recent times.  Some of Tom’s ruckwork is right up there … he just doesn’t do it often enough.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: The Ruck Division .... Is It Really Competent Enough ??

Reply #149 –
@djc
Someone, maybe Northern blue? Has pointed out that the hitout to advantage stat is about if it reaches the target. Not if the player gets it.
That is, if the player fumbles, is bumped off the ball or $h!t5 a brick in the process.
By the same token, if a ruck hits it to a 50-50, and cripps dominates Nd gets the ball and clearance, it's still not a hitout to advantage.

It's a pure stat.