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Topic: The rise.... and RISE of Marc Pittonet (Read 257487 times) previous topic - next topic
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The rise.... and RISE of Marc Pittonet

I've recently made comments about Pittonets ruckwork.
Best i've seen from a bloke in navy blue since Matty Allen.

I've also gone on to say that his form could potentially spell the end for our beloved Matty Kreuzer.

People have their own opinions, but i prefer to back it up with stats where possible.
So I've done just that with the help of some new stats i've come across in regards to rucking.

Stats used are
RC - Ruck Contests - How many times you've competed in a 1-on-1 ruck contest
HO - Hitout - Normal stat, how many hitouts you've one
HA - Hitout to Advantage - how useful those hitouts were. Was it to the direct advantage of your team.
HO% - Hitout % - What percentatge of hitouts that you competed in, did you win.
HA% - Hitouts to Advantage % - What percentage of hitouts that you won, went to advantage
CA% - Contests to Advantage % - What percentage of ruck contests that you competed in, resulted in a hitout to advantage

This last one is the key as it tells us what are the chances that we will get a direct advantage from any give ruck contest.
HA% only tells us how effective the hitouts we get our hands on are and it doesn't include the contests we lost.

With that in mind.
Lets look at our week by week of Pittonet vs Opponent

R#  RC   HO  HA  HO%  HA%  CA%  Player
R2   65   23   10   35%   43%   15%  Pittonet   
R2   72   34   10   47%   29%   14%  Gawn   

R3   65   36   15   55%   42%   23%  Pittonet   
R3   50   17     4   34%   24%     8%  Stanley   

R4   58   20     6   34%   30%   10%  Pittonet
R4   46   24     2   52%     8%     4%  Bellchambers

R5   48   22     7   46%   32%   15%  Pittonet
R5   49   22     4   45%   18%     8%  Marshall

R6   60   33   11   55%   33%   18%  Pittonet
R6   73   27     6   37%   22%     8%  English
What does it show us?

Despite not winning the 'hitouts' (which is the only common stat used) his hitout to advantage rate is much higher than any opponent he faces.
Further to that, despite not winning the overall hitouts, the chances of a 'hitout to advantage' when he lines up in a ruck contest is superior than anyone he comes up against. (This is the final bolded column)


After spending the better part of an hour going through a lot of the above, i a stat which sums up a lot of the above rather simply.

He is "ELITE" in hitouts to advantage competition wide.

Although as mentioned, that is only half the tale.....by extension he would also be ELITE in 'hitouts to advantage from contests rucked in.' The simple difference is the last stat takes into accounts his opponent wins as well.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #1 –
Having Cripps at a rucks feet makes a huge difference, as did Judd.

Pittonet is reasonable in the center bounce, Phillips was very good in the bounce, Hampson was extraordinarily good at the center bounce, Kreuzer has never been a very good at the bounce, but he and Hampson had Judd. But all that is an assessment based on the effects of the tap and the tap alone, but it's not about the tap as the tap is only about 10 or 15% of the ruck's duty.

That by the way is exposed by the stats, against Gawn, Pittonet's CA of 15% out of 35% wins is 5.25%, or just a bit better than 1 good result out of every 20 attempts! So for 65 RCs that is a grand total of about 3-1/2 contested hit outs to an advantage for a whole game.

I've always argued the rucking deficits of the likes of Phillips and Casboult are not related to the tap, but it's all about what happens next. Casboult has recently improved the rest of ruck play dramatically, so he has gone up in my opinion.

Pittonet is OK but isn't a fraction of what Kreuzer offers around the ground, in possession chains, the positioning.

Another interesting tell is that only Kreuzer is talked about as a potential chop-out option for Cripps, that idea only exists because of everything other than the tap.

But the bloke who exposes the folly of these stats more than any other is Warnock, completely dominant in the tap but utterly worthless overall. They could call Warnock "The Tap King", and he'd go the same way, extinction! :D
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #2 –
Clearly he's had a great start, and has exceeded expectations, but 6 games is way too early to be getting excited. Ruck is a very injury prone position, and Pittonetto has been starved of opportunity at the Hawks, so there's some real hunger there. If Kreuzer was fit throughout 2020, it's not unreasonable to surmise that MP would still be yet to debut. But MK is injured, and MP has grabbed his chance with both hands, and good on him too.

We'll see how he goes when he has a form slump, returns from injury, the team drops off etc. Then we can judge.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #3 –
He is also very good below the knees, dishing off rocket handballs in traffic and is a very strong mark around the ground. He looks loke the type who woould love to ruck all day but needs to be managed.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #4 –
Quote from: LP – on
Having Cripps at a rucks feet makes a huge difference, as did Judd.
No. It matters little.

Its the ability of a ruck to put the ball into a clear winning position.
It is NOT tapping it straight down to a scrum in which Cripps bullocks his way past 3 players. That would be considered a hitout. Not a hitout to advantage.

Quote from: LP – on
That by the way is exposed by the stats, against Gawn, Pittonet's CA of 15% out of 35% wins is 5.25%, or just a bit better than 1 good result out of every 20 attempts! So for 65 RCs that is a grand total of about 3-1/2 contested hit outs to an advantage for a whole game.
WRONG. Completely made up. Incorrect interpretation.

The CA% is essentially (hitouts to advantage / number of centre bounces attended). So it takes into account every single hitout that the ruck contested. Included every single one that he lost. How do i know this? I created the stat!



Quote from: LP – on
I've always argued the rucking deficits of the likes of Phillips and Casboult are not related to the tap, but it's all about what happens next. Casboult has recently improved the rest of ruck play dramatically, so he has gone up in my opinion.
FYI, Casboult attended 119 centre bounces and has 11 to advantage.
Thus a CA% of 9.2%. He had 0% last match.
Both of those stats back up my assertion that it has nothing to do with Cripps/Judd.

Quote from: LP – on
But the bloke who exposes the folly of these stats more than any other is Warnock, completely dominant in the tap but utterly worthless overall. They could call Warnock "The Tap King", and he'd go the same way, extinction! :D
Well i cannot access Warnocks stats for a comparison, but i do remember his hitouts were high, but to advantage were not as high as you'd think. In short, Pittonet has him covered.


The whole stats above are a snapshot of Pittonets ruck work, but also an indication of his work ethic and attitude.
He has beaten everyone he's come up against, including Max Gawn, despite a terrible first quarter there. He dug in, fought back and came out on top.
FYI, Pittonet had 5 clearances to Gawns 3 as well.
Casboult 0% CA again. ;)

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #5 –
For those pumping up Kreuzers tyres....
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=4&playerStatus2=A&tid2=4&type=A&pid1=4077&pid2=2301&fid1=O&fid2=O

At the same age, Pittonet is averaging 1.6 more clearances a game.
A little less around the ground, but people saying Kreuzer should be used as a ruck rover need to rethink those opinions.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #6 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
He is also very good below the knees, dishing off rocket handballs in traffic and is a very strong mark around the ground. He looks loke the type who woould love to ruck all day but needs to be managed.

So glad someone else noticed this about Pitts. His ability to get and give is brilliant, and always sharp and right to the target - good footy brain and reflexes.

+ love his ferocity and mongrel. Big bloke with attitude is such a plus for us nicies.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #7 –
Be interesting this week, Lycett did a number on a banged up Mumford and crew vs GWS last week and destroyed Flipper Philips round 2 last season when we played Port..Kreuzer must have been injured(there is a surprise).
Lycett, Dixon and Pepper Powell got stuck right into GWS last week and served up the physical stuff and the GWS boys didnt like it and I expect a repeat recipe this week.
Pittonet will earn his money this game and its a real test to see if he can first of all compete with Lycett and secondly provide the cover we need to our kids. I think he has made us a much better team and is better than just a meathead type from the VFL and still has a lot of improvement in him.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #8 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
So glad someone else noticed this about Pitts. His ability to get and give is brilliant, and always sharp and right to the target - good footy brain and reflexes.

+ love his ferocity and mongrel. Big bloke with attitude is such a plus for us nicies.
In my mind, he has become our most important player.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #9 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
In my mind, he has become our most important player.
Agree....you look at Richmond who added Nankervis, Prestia and Caddy and we know the rest...
Pittonet, Martin......," player X".......we could be next following that formula...

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #10 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
For those pumping up Kreuzers tyres....
https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=4&playerStatus2=A&tid2=4&type=A&pid1=4077&pid2=2301&fid1=O&fid2=O

At the same age, Pittonet is averaging 1.6 more clearances a game.
A little less around the ground, but people saying Kreuzer should be used as a ruck rover need to rethink those opinions.
 They were playing under different rules when Kreuzer was Pittonet's current age!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #11 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
The CA% is essentially (hitouts to advantage / number of centre bounces attended). So it takes into account every single hitout that the ruck contested. Included every single one that he lost. How do i know this? I created the stat!
Pittonet by your own stats only wins 35% of hitouts, if more than a 1/3rd of them(15%) are to advantage he isn't just the best Carlton ruckmen he is the greatest ruckmen of all time at any club that ever existed!

Well what you do to make up stats is a matter for you, but if you are going to make up stats, you best clearly define to and stick with it, because by your own earlier post you've redefined the stat. I'll know next time to cross check whatever you post in case more of it is made up!
Quote from: kruddler – on
CA% - Contests to Advantage % - What percentage of ruck contests that you competed in, resulted in a hitout to advantage
 
 


"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #12 –
Quote from: LP – on
Having Cripps at a rucks feet makes a huge difference, as did Judd.

Pittonet is reasonable in the center bounce, Phillips was very good in the bounce, Hampson was extraordinarily good at the center bounce, Kreuzer has never been a very good at the bounce, but he and Hampson had Judd. But all that is an assessment based on the effects of the tap and the tap alone, but it's not about the tap as the tap is only about 10 or 15% of the ruck's duty.

That by the way is exposed by the stats, against Gawn, Pittonet's CA of 15% out of 35% wins is 5.25%, or just a bit better than 1 good result out of every 20 attempts! So for 65 RCs that is a grand total of about 3-1/2 contested hit outs to an advantage for a whole game.

I've always argued the rucking deficits of the likes of Phillips and Casboult are not related to the tap, but it's all about what happens next. Casboult has recently improved the rest of ruck play dramatically, so he has gone up in my opinion.

Pittonet is OK but isn't a fraction of what Kreuzer offers around the ground, in possession chains, the positioning.

Another interesting tell is that only Kreuzer is talked about as a potential chop-out option for Cripps, that idea only exists because of everything other than the tap.

But the bloke who exposes the folly of these stats more than any other is Warnock, completely dominant in the tap but utterly worthless overall. They could call Warnock "The Tap King", and he'd go the same way, extinction! :D

Don't know if you noticed but Cripps is barely touching it this year.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #13 –
Pumping up Pitto doesn't have to mean we're slagging off Kreuzer.

Just enjoying the league's best hitout-er at the minute wearing navy blue.

Re: The rise and RISE of Marc Pittonet

Reply #14 –
There's no doubt that Pittonet has seized his opportunity and made the most of it.  After seven games in four years with the Hawks, he is poised to double or perhaps treble his game tally in one season with us.

As I remarked in another thread, watching him compete against Kreuzer in a pre-season practise match filled me with dread; he simply wasn't able to match it with Matty's nous, positioning and body strength.  However, once he got the call up, he has acquitted himself very well and, at worst, has been competitive against one of the game's best ruckmen.  However, he still has a long way to go before he could be considered anywhere near the standard of most teams' first rucks.

For example, Tim English has been in the AFL system for two years less than Pittonet, is a little taller and is significantly lighter but has played three times as many games.  Pittonet got more hitouts (27-33) but English had more disposals (17-7) and more marks (3-0).  They both laid one tackle.  Yes, Pittonet may have got more hitouts to advantage (and some of his hitouts would have earned praise from Big Nick) but he was rucking to a rampant midfield (we won the clearances 33-30).  That was a clear win to English.

Against the Saints, Pittonet squared the hitouts with Marshall but the latter had 19 disposals to Pittonet's 5.  Marshall is six months older than Pittonet and is basically the same height and weight.  A resounding win to Marshall.

Bellchambers is Kreuzer vintage and would struggle to get a game with most teams.  He just pipped Pittonet for hitouts.  The latter was more effective around the ground and you would have to score that as a win to Pittonet.

Pittonet smashed Stanley in the ruck contests and broke even around the ground.  A resounding win for Pittonet.

Gawn flogged Pittonet, but there's no disgrace in that.  To Pittonet's credit, he fought back well and was a more effective player in the second half.

Yes, hitouts to advantage are important but they measure the ability of the midfield as much as the ability of the ruckmen.  However, they are only part of the story.  Negating the opposition ruckman's influence around the ground is a key to winning footy and Pittonet hasn't shown that he can do that.  Furthermore, he is a long way from having an influence around the ground.

If Pittonet's numbers start to approach those of English we can heave a sigh of relief for we will have found/developed a replacement for Kreuzer.  The King might have something to say about that though.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball