Carlton Supporters Club

I have watched the talks.  You can't throw a blanket over everyone but those people with both bits you mention aren't trans or don't fit that gender construct.

I watched the talks.  Saw them from start to finish.  Have had these conversations with people.  For something that is supposedly based on science a lot of it based on subjective opinion of "im in the wrong body".  The woman born with gonads is clearly not in that category.

You'll also note that identity politics is a bigger part of this than the I was born in an ambiguous body.

Point is, nature stuffs up. Those people are proof enough that what you are saying doesn't stack up in those instances.

By extension, it's possible that nature stuffs up in other ways that are less obvious.

I'm not saying enrolments who wants to transition has a legitimate claim.
People have transitioned into reptiles, babies, aliens and whatever else that doesn't stack up to science.
However,  you need to judge each case on its merits.

Science doesn't care what you believe.

The fact that nature makes errors in some cases doesn't explain the subjective nature away in others.

Weve discussed science a little bit here but the science can't actually tell me someone was born in the wrong body.

I already stated that some people make a call on that stuff with less than scientific backing aka transforming into lizards, babies, aliens etc.

This is not  one size fits all.

In saying some cases are legitimate.
You seem to be saying that none are.

Lizards, Babies, aliens....  Not even in the same ball park.  Those wants are something else that shouldn't be entertained when the surgery or money could be better spent, and serves only to feed the mentality of "I am different, I am special, look at me" which is the only thing I think might correlate with some trans people.


I think you will find, that your idea of what I am saying is just one component of a wider problem with this discussion.

I am saying, that some of this becomes a self fulfilling prophecy and people idealise the human experience and confuse that with some sort of identity which is just another construct of their own creation (with some additional programming).

Society has taught us that traditional gender roles are gone.  This is something we are embracing as a society, so by extension, which gender you identify as becomes really quite irrelevant in that world with a few exceptions likely surrounding procreation.  I think you will find that I am analysing this on a much more philosophical level than most people assume, because i come across as bigoted and potentially misogynistic but it actually isn't my intention.

Its my way.  I like to pull things apart, unpack them, because that's key to how I understand it, and I cannot understand how trans has become so prevalent in society, and the answer to me is clear as the day is long and I wonder why this isn't really being reinforced anywhere.  It's just become accepted that people trans.  Sure, that's not inherently an issue for the majority, but is it right?

The idea of what a male or female is, is 100% part of that issue.  Think about it, if you aren't a male, or aren't a female, what is your picture of the other gender?  How do they behave?  What clothes do they wear?  Thing is, is any of that even relevant to a gender, identity and know how someone would feel in a female/male world?

The answer is, it isn't.  Think about it.  I have raised this point before.  People don't actually debate it, they just dismiss it.  How can you dismiss your body, without truly having an understanding of what the other gender feels like?  The irony in that, is me dismissing a trans person for feeling that way, but that at least is understandable.  I cannot fathom their idea, thinking or understand it.  I can envision what its like to be blind.  Go to a dark place, turn the lights off, and then blindfold yourself.  Or even close your eyes.  That, you can feel and experience briefly but you never really understand that this is all you will experience if you do it and the wont even get the full experience of learning braille, unless you truly experience blindness, you dont know what it feels like. 

Being deaf is much more difficult to replicate, because our hearing is quite keen and you cant turn off the volume of the world.  Being lame we all experience in some degree for periods in our lives, but we don't know what its like to truly move around without a limb.  We briefly get a snapshot of these worlds if we want to experience it, but we don't know how it feels to be in that world 100% of the time, and this is where I tend to struggle with the idea that someone can really ever identify as a gender they don't biologically experience.

The thing is, none of us are really going to change tune.  We do agree on one aspect of this.  I will entertain that these people identify as, and refer to them as their gender of choice if that makes them happy, because I am not willing to be hurtful to people if that's what validates them.  I do question whether or not I should be validating that, but I am compartmentalising that component of it and hence why I bring it up here.  To any one trans person, it is fundamentally not my business.

Do I at least sound reasonable?

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and I think about things the same way you do.

I guess the parts we differ in is this.

You say it's more normal and thus it's becoming more normal.
Correct.....in part for the reasons you say.
However, in part because people feel they can be honest now too.

When being gay became more acceptable, did that turn more people gay or did it allows those who already were gay the freedom to come out, thus 'increasing' the amount of gay people. Similar imo.

Now going back to your gender identity qualification question.
There is no one answer that satisfies this question. I'll throw a couple things at you to think about.

1. Does it matter what they think or feel?

2. By extension, what is your take on people who suffer from (I think it's called) Alien limb syndrome? These are the people who have such an issue with one part of their body that they think its not theirs and seek to have it amputated. Only then can they feel 'whole' as such...and happy.

3. This highlights what would be considered a 'wiring' issue within the brain. Some people who have foot fetishs are believed to because of a similar wiring issue within the brain. That has people obsessing over a non-traditionally sexualising part. Is it for you to say that their feeling of that is wrong? Could they qualify why the feel that way? Could you understand if they did? They just know how they feel.

4. Does it matter WHY they think or feel that way?

The point about the gay numbers is the more accepted it is, the more people feel comfortable coming out. I'm talking in recent history, like over our lifetimes. Being more public does not 'change' people into being gay, just allows them to be open about it. So more numbers does not equal more 'conversions' for lack of a better term, but rather more honesty.

@Thryleon

1. Context is this. They are human, they feel the way they do. It does not affect anyone else in society. So why push back? Accept and deal. (This is not directed at you, but society as a whole)

And perhaps it’s to the credit of female former high-level athletes that they don’t use their highly-honed techniques to dominate masters events too. Masters footy isn’t dominated by ex-AFL stars mainly because they don’t play Masters footy. Libba does and he was dominating in the 35s category when he was over 50. Not only did his technique serve him well, he was fitter than his opponents as well.

Definition of Transgender

The term ‘Transgender’ is used in these Regulations to refer to individuals whose gender identity (i.e. how they identify) is different from the sex designated to them at birth, whether they are pre- or post-puberty, and whether or not they have undergone any form of medical intervention.

 
Participation is encouraged with conditions

World Athletics recognises that Transgender athletes may wish to compete in Athletics in accordance with their gender identity. World Athletics wishes to encourage and facilitate such participation, on conditions that go only so far as is necessary to protect the safety of all participants and to deliver on the promise of fair and meaningful competition offered by the division of the sport into male and female categories of competition.

 

Conditions of participation

A Transgender athlete who wishes to participate in an International Competition, or to be eligible to set a World Record in a competition that is not an International Competition, agrees, as a condition to such participation:

· To comply in full with these Regulations

· To cooperate promptly and in good faith with the Medical Manager and the Expert Panel in the discharge of their respective responsibilities under these Regulations, including providing them with all of the information and evidence they request to assess his/her compliance and/or monitor his/her continuing compliance with the eligibility conditions referred to in these Regulations;

 

Procedure for applying for eligibility: male transgender athletes

· A transgender male athlete must provide a written and signed declaration, in a form satisfactory to the Medical Manager, that his gender identity is male.

· As soon as reasonably practicable following receipt of such declaration, the Medical Manager will issue a written certification of that athlete’s eligibility to compete in the male category of competition in International Competition and to set a World Record in the male category in a competition that is not an International Competition.

 
Procedure for applying for eligibility: female transgender athletes

A transgender female athlete must meet the following to the satisfaction of an Expert Panel

· She must provide a written and signed declaration, in a form satisfactory to the Medical Manager, that her gender identity is female

· Along with this she must provide a comprehensive medical history

The Medical Manager will refer the file (in anonymised form) to the Expert Panel for assessment

· She must demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Expert Panel (on the balance of probabilities) that the concentration of testosterone in her serum has been less than 5 nmol/L3 continuously for a period of at least 12 months

· Also, she must keep her serum testosterone concentration below 5 nmol/L for

so long as she wishes to maintain her eligibility to compete in the female category of competition.

If the Expert Panel decides that the Transgender Female Eligibility Conditions have been met, the Medical Manager will issue a written certification of that athlete’s eligibility to compete in the female category of competition in International Competition (and to set a World Record in the female category in a competition that is not an International Competition).

That eligibility will be subject in every case to the athlete’s continuing satisfaction of the Transgender Female Eligibility Conditions, including continuously maintaining her serum testosterone at a concentration of less than 5 nmol/L.

 

The following are NOT required:

· Legal recognition of the athlete’s gender identity as the athlete’s sex

· Surgical anatomical changes

@Thryleon
Firstly, the gay stuff.
I know where the term comes from, but that is irrelevant.
The fact it is so old is also irrelevant, however, something else that is 'old' is the native american gender definitions which we've talked about before.

The point about the gay numbers is the more accepted it is, the more people feel comfortable coming out. I'm talking in recent history, like over our lifetimes. Being more public does not 'change' people into being gay, just allows them to be open about it. So more numbers does not equal more 'conversions' for lack of a better term, but rather more honesty.

Same logic to more trans people now.

1. Context is this. They are human, they feel the way they do. It does not affect anyone else in society. So why push back? Accept and deal. (This is not directed at you, but society as a whole)

2. https://www.healthline.com/health/alien-hand-syndrome
As suggested, its more about a wiring issue in the brain.
But they simply can't change the way they feel. You can't really comprehend how they feel. But they feel that way and it can't be changed.....unless.....something changes physically.

3. The difference is, as mentioned above, it doesn't hurt anyone. It is not against any rules/laws and it makes them feel better about themselves and live a better life.

4. Expand...

Three days before the biggest flood in modern Australian history inundated the Northern Rivers, Lismore City Council was told by the NSW government that its concerns were “premature”. It was the first in a series of failures.