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Pre game Postulations Round 16 Carlton vs Sydney at Metricon.

Not that long ago I would have put this one down as a certain win. Times change. Sydney beat Melbourne in Cairns while we've struggled in recent time.
We need something and we need it fast. Some of our guys need a rest.
Live Long and Prosper!

Re: Pre game Postulations Round 16 Carlton vs Sydney at Metricon.

Reply #1
Rest the sore, give some others a chance...and give a few  others their 'farewell' games.

Re: Pre game Postulations Round 16 Carlton vs Sydney at Metricon.

Reply #2
We look physically and mentally fatigued, even drained,  from what I can see, with very little energy left to show full commitment and the will to win - a mental thing. Listening to Hodge's analysis during the game, we seemed to be showing poor awareness to situations and making pretty fundamental errors, especially at crucial times in defence which cost us goals. Seems like most of the team would rather be somewhere else.

In all fairness I have seen it in other teams too, but it seems to be really getting to us now.
Reality is when you stop believing in something it doesn’t go away.......

Re: Pre game Postulations Round 16 Carlton vs Sydney at Metricon.

Reply #3
We look physically and mentally fatigued, even drained,  from what I can see, with very little energy left to show full commitment and the will to win - a mental thing. Listening to Hodge's analysis during the game, we seemed to be showing poor awareness to situations and making pretty fundamental errors, especially at crucial times in defence which cost us goals. Seems like most of the team would rather be somewhere else.

In all fairness I have seen it in other teams too, but it seems to be really getting to us now.

I think that's the key. It's not just happening to our team. The bizarre nature of the season is affecting all teams at different stages.
As teams chances of making finals disappear we're likely to see more capitulations, some quite dramatic.
Players will just want it to be over.
Some have already switched off.
For many there will be real concerns about their playing future.
You can condemn that attitude as unprofessional...but these are unprecedented times

Re: Pre game Postulations Round 16 Carlton vs Sydney at Metricon.

Reply #4
I think that's the key. It's not just happening to our team. The bizarre nature of the season is affecting all teams at different stages.
As teams chances of making finals disappear we're likely to see more capitulations, some quite dramatic.
Players will just want it to be over.
Some have already switched off.
For many there will be real concerns about their playing future.
You can condemn that attitude as unprofessional...but these are unprecedented times
Our blokes have checked out now surely. For me, the one who would benefit most from a rest is Cripps. Teague said in his presser he had a bit of corky last week from the Mayne clash, I think his mind is elsewhere. Send him home to look after his partner. As for rest? Farewell games for Eddie, Levi and Simmo. Even Kruze if he can get up for one more. I want to see what Owies, Ramsey, Philp, Honey have got.
2017 - 16th
2018 - Wooden Spoon
2019 - 16th
2020 - dare to dream?
2021 - Pi$$ or get off the pot

Re: Pre game Postulations Round 16 Carlton vs Sydney at Metricon.

Reply #5
Not that long ago I would have put this one down as a certain win. Times change. Sydney beat Melbourne in Cairns while we've struggled in recent time.
We need something and we need it fast. Some of our guys need a rest.

Swans will have their tails up and some real confidence after their win. This won’t help our chances. Will be interesting to see what the team selection is for this match. Not confident about this game or the next three to be honest. I agree some need a rest. Let some new blood try to show their potential.
This digital world is too much for us insects to understand.


Re: Pre game Postulations Round 16 Carlton vs Sydney at Metricon.

Reply #7
IN : Kennedy, O'Brien, Gibbons, Marchbank

OUT :  Cripps, Docherty, Simpson, Betts,

Make Weitering & Walsh co-captains for the next game.
"The Other Teams Can Rot In Hell"

Re: Pre game Postulations Round 16 Carlton vs Sydney at Metricon.

Reply #8
Swans can be one of the toughest sides to beat. No sides gives more. They might not be so good at present but they give 100% and are well coached. Go there not switched on and they get you. We one of the most difficult too. Bar Hawthorn you can bet no side enjoyed playing us this year.

Hopefully while the maths shows it's possible we keep going and put it out there but that ship probably sail last night. Like to finish with 8 wins. That would be a good season. Then we can mull on what might have been. The biggest games we couldn't finish last qtrs after being on top. Been good against sides of our own standard though.

Re: Pre game Postulations Round 16 Carlton vs Sydney at Metricon.

Reply #9
Would like to see Owies given a taste. He is the only untried player I'd think was important to have a look at by the end of the season. Ramsay we could give a game to I suppose but he is still in his teens whereas Owies is, what, 24? I don't mean that as a criticism, I understand he went out of the system for a while, but it seems to me we need to make a call on him and a look at him in AFL company would help and indeed it would be unfair on him to cut him at the end of season without that look IMO.

The other untried players are Phillips and O'Dwyer who I don't think are near it and the injured Kemp.

Others I'd like to give more time to this year are O'Brien who needs to show something and Macreadie who I really rate if he can stay on the park. If Cripps needs a rest play Kennedy in the role and see if he has what it takes. I don't think we can go with both in the same side too often unless they switch the centre/third key forward roles between themselves but that means having to make choices about other key forwards. We have a plethora of key forwards ATM but that doesn't mean we should play them all at once, much less then go 2 ruckmen into the bargain.

The team looked tired last night. We are back on Tuesday night Rotation time perhaps? Reading the comments about the recent scratch matches suggests to me that there are a number of the younger players who they would want to keep working on at that level at the moment - Ramsay and Philp being 2. If you really wanted to do a refresh without going uber-inexperienced you could look at bringing in Lang - I don't think there is a future for him but as a stop-gap if we rest the experienced guys en masse I wouldn't object. Other than Murphy who I think is trying his guts out and not looking tired there is no shortage of senior guys and indeed not so senior guys (eg Willo) who could do with a rest. Even Murphy might struggle to come up again so quickly. Not that I expect them to do this, nor do I think mass rotations is the way to go but if they wanted to how about this team:

OUT: Cottrell Dow Polson (omitted) Simpson Williamson Cripps Casboult Betts Pittonet Murphy (managed)

IN: Plowman Macreadie Kennedy Cuningham Gibbons (experienced returning from break) Lang (in for experience) O'Brien (time to show something) TDK (still a couple of years off his best but AFL-ready) Honey (kid) Owies (debutant but not a kid)

Thats TEN changes - out with 4 fairly young/inexperienced players, 1 slightly more experienced , 1 struggling superstar and 3 veterans, in with 5 guys with decent experience, 2 with a bit of experience and 2 kids 1 on debut. Yes we lose top end experience but they are all as it seems to me struggling ATM and facing a second short turnaround.

Here is how I would have them line up:

SPS Weitering Plowman
Docherty Macreadie Newnes
Fisher Kennedy Walsh
Cuningham McKay Gibbons
Jones McGovern Owies
TDK Martin E Curnow
Honey Lang O'Brien Setterfield

Jones can give TDK a chop out in the ruck to save McKay doing the role. McKay to push up as the outlet for defenders, McGovern leading into the space behind him Jones staying close to goal to give a contest for the long bomb in if nothing else presents. Don't expect him to be a goal machine but to contest hit packs hard, create some chaos and not be outmarked too often. McKay and McGovern (especially the latter) to be expected to work hard and keep presenting. If defensive talls get exposed Jones or McGovern can be thrown back. Fisher back in the middle where he wants to be and a look at some of the younger players we need to find out about.

MC will no doubt keep some of the older guys, hope they work out which ones have the legs to go again Tuesday, that is more crucial than form at the moment.

Re: Pre game Postulations Round 16 Carlton vs Sydney at Metricon.

Reply #10
IN : Kennedy, O'Brien, Gibbons, Marchbank

OUT :  Cripps, Docherty, Simpson, Betts,

Make Weitering & Walsh co-captains for the next game.
I shared my team review spreadsheet with a mate today and in, I had Walsh and Weiters as co-captains permanently.
2017 - 16th
2018 - Wooden Spoon
2019 - 16th
2020 - dare to dream?
2021 - Pi$$ or get off the pot

Re: Pre game Postulations Round 16 Carlton vs Sydney at Metricon.

Reply #11
Would like to see Owies given a taste. He is the only untried player I'd think was important to have a look at by the end of the season. Ramsay we could give a game to I suppose but he is still in his teens whereas Owies is, what, 24? I don't mean that as a criticism, I understand he went out of the system for a while, but it seems to me we need to make a call on him and a look at him in AFL company would help and indeed it would be unfair on him to cut him at the end of season without that look IMO.

The other untried players are Phillips and O'Dwyer who I don't think are near it and the injured Kemp.

Others I'd like to give more time to this year are O'Brien who needs to show something and Macreadie who I really rate if he can stay on the park. If Cripps needs a rest play Kennedy in the role and see if he has what it takes. I don't think we can go with both in the same side too often unless they switch the centre/third key forward roles between themselves but that means having to make choices about other key forwards. We have a plethora of key forwards ATM but that doesn't mean we should play them all at once, much less then go 2 ruckmen into the bargain.

The team looked tired last night. We are back on Tuesday night Rotation time perhaps? Reading the comments about the recent scratch matches suggests to me that there are a number of the younger players who they would want to keep working on at that level at the moment - Ramsay and Philp being 2. If you really wanted to do a refresh without going uber-inexperienced you could look at bringing in Lang - I don't think there is a future for him but as a stop-gap if we rest the experienced guys en masse I wouldn't object. Other than Murphy who I think is trying his guts out and not looking tired there is no shortage of senior guys and indeed not so senior guys (eg Willo) who could do with a rest. Even Murphy might struggle to come up again so quickly. Not that I expect them to do this, nor do I think mass rotations is the way to go but if they wanted to how about this team:

OUT: Cottrell Dow Polson (omitted) Simpson Williamson Cripps Casboult Betts Pittonet Murphy (managed)

IN: Plowman Macreadie Kennedy Cuningham Gibbons (experienced returning from break) Lang (in for experience) O'Brien (time to show something) TDK (still a couple of years off his best but AFL-ready) Honey (kid) Owies (debutant but not a kid)

Thats TEN changes - out with 4 fairly young/inexperienced players, 1 slightly more experienced , 1 struggling superstar and 3 veterans, in with 5 guys with decent experience, 2 with a bit of experience and 2 kids 1 on debut. Yes we lose top end experience but they are all as it seems to me struggling ATM and facing a second short turnaround.

Here is how I would have them line up:

SPS Weitering Plowman
Docherty Macreadie Newnes
Fisher Kennedy Walsh
Cuningham McKay Gibbons
Jones McGovern Owies
TDK Martin E Curnow
Honey Lang O'Brien Setterfield

Jones can give TDK a chop out in the ruck to save McKay doing the role. McKay to push up as the outlet for defenders, McGovern leading into the space behind him Jones staying close to goal to give a contest for the long bomb in if nothing else presents. Don't expect him to be a goal machine but to contest hit packs hard, create some chaos and not be outmarked too often. McKay and McGovern (especially the latter) to be expected to work hard and keep presenting. If defensive talls get exposed Jones or McGovern can be thrown back. Fisher back in the middle where he wants to be and a look at some of the younger players we need to find out about.

MC will no doubt keep some of the older guys, hope they work out which ones have the legs to go again Tuesday, that is more crucial than form at the moment.
The days of Jones playing fwd are over so you can forget that, he's either back or gonski.

For all the whinging I have heard from people (not having a crack at you by the way) about SPS being played out of position, everytime a side is listed he is always in the backline. And there is a reason for that I reckon, he probably can't play anywhere else. If he was any good to play mid or forward, and if that's also his preference, wouldn't it be logical that Teague would have played him there by now? But he hasn't so that's a big tell. I personally hope they trade him as I have had a gut full of his insipid efforts.
2017 - 16th
2018 - Wooden Spoon
2019 - 16th
2020 - dare to dream?
2021 - Pi$$ or get off the pot

Re: Pre game Postulations Round 16 Carlton vs Sydney at Metricon.

Reply #12
@ GIC & ianh
I was writing this at the same time GIC posted and hadn't read ianh's post.
Looks like we agree/ don't agree on a few things ;D

In a normal season I wouldn’t suggest that we don’t try to win every game. But this is such a wacky season that it deserves a wacky ending
Jones to the forward line and/or an on/ball role. Let’s see what he’s learnt playing on the key forwards (and get him away from Willo)
Not too far though because Williamson goes to the wing and space.
Casboult to defence…he’s played there before and done OK.
SPS -midfield and half forward.
McGovern- A bit has been made of the fact that the Gov still contributes to the side even if he’s not impacting statistically. Change that up and make him the main target. Let Harry play the decoy role.
Alternatively…clear everyone, but perhaps a small forward, well out of the goal area and let Harry go one on one with his defender. Harry’s fairly quick for a big bloke
Everyone that hasn’t had one gets a game in the last few…especially Owies

I only suggest the Jones forward one because I'm interested to see if by playing on some of the best forwards he's learnt afew forward tricks. SPS gives us little as a defender ...mid/forward or trade


Re: Pre game Postulations Round 16 Carlton vs Sydney at Metricon.

Reply #13
Agree with GTC on Jones...you can only be reborn so many times and its backline or the bush for him now.
Dont mind the Weitering/Walsh leadership idea either...said on the other thread we lack leadership and leaders who can read the play and organise the team onfield when under some heat and those two are probably the most two mature players in the team for the future.
We didnt recruit McGovern to provide spiritual guidance or Feng shui on the field, if he is playing forward its goals or goal assists or he doesnt get a game.
If Eddie wasnt Eddie he would be dropped, there was always a risk he wouldnt work out and guess what it hasnt worked out and we need to get a real smart young small forward, in fact we probably need a couple.
Maybe Eddie can play the last three games with Owies and teach him something, the strangest thing about recruiting Eddie was not recruiting an apprentice for him to train this season.

Re: Pre game Postulations Round 16 Carlton vs Sydney at Metricon.

Reply #14
For all the whinging I have heard from people (not having a crack at you by the way) about SPS being played out of position, everytime a side is listed he is always in the backline. And there is a reason for that I reckon, he probably can't play anywhere else. If he was any good to play mid or forward, and if that's also his preference, wouldn't it be logical that Teague would have played him there by now? But he hasn't so that's a big tell. I personally hope they trade him as I have had a gut full of his insipid efforts.

The reason he is picked, and played, in the backline is because we are trying to build a backline 'unit'. A group of players that play together over a long period of time and they know what their teammates can and will do at any given opportunity.

There was some stat i saw recently that said Jones+Weitering+Simpson+Plowman+SPS have played in the backline together for 50-odd games or something like that. I might get some names and numbers wrong, but you get the point.

As for why he personally is played there, because we need run and carry and good ball movement coming out of defense. He is it.
Is he perfect? No.
Does he try and be too cute sometimes? Sure.
Is he still amongst our best users of the ball? Yes.
Perhaps if Newman didn't go down with his knee, and Simpson, Docherty and Plowman also managed to stay fit, SPS would be moved further up the ground.

Can he play there? Yes.
Is he tough enough and will he put his body on the line? Yes.

I did an in depth analysis of SPS and his tackle numbers you may recall (boomer ;))
He averages more tackles a game than almost everyone on our list. IIRC, only Cripps and maybe Curnow had a higher tackles per game average.
Further analysis shows that 1 in every 10 games, he will get 8 tackles or more. He has hit 10 tackles, twice.

Only twice in his 76 games has he gone without a tackle.
1 was when we dominated the dogs this year...and they barely had the ball for us to tackle them.
The other was when he got 35 touches playing midfield, also against the dogs, when we cracked the ton against them last year.

So sure, have an opinion, but "insipid efforts" should be applied to many a carlton jumper wearing player before it gets directed at SPS IMHO.
If the rest of the team tackled like him, we'd be in a better place.