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Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #150 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Renewable is a better word than clean. I'm not sure where "clean" comes from. It is actually renewable. No form of energy is clean, but some are certainly cleaner than others.
Solar cells are the industrial waste of the next few decade, they aren't subject to recycling regulations and aren't compatible with most recycling anyway, on average they are unlikely to make it to the stated/rated design life, and disposing of them is not accounted for in the green equations. Renewable is a furphy, because it assumes the solar panels are everlasting, but they are the new asbestos of the 2030s and beyond! Renewable now, but later, not my problem, NIMBY!

FWIW, there are already warehouses around Sydney and Melbourne, filling up with failed, faulty or outdated solar panels waiting for someone to come up with a solution.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"
 

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #151 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Whether clean energy is as clean as its proponents make out is only of peripheral interest. It's way better that coal and the technologies currently in use. This line of argumentation leads very quickly and easily to inaction.

Clean energy is only one piece of the jigsaw puzzle. One needs to consider transport, building construction and other aspects as well.

Paul, I will go on record and state if people can debunk my thinking, then do so, but there is an equation that gets missed when calculating the environmental impacts.

Manufacturing.
Disposal.
Cleaning (this one is particularly important for solar panels which wastes a lot of water).
Storage (batteries, lithium, graphite, silicon).
Shipping, and installation.
Real estate.

There are examples of companies selling "clean energy" from batteries that are storing power that are charged using base load coal to compensate for when the sun doesnt shine, or the wind doesnt blow.

There are also a lot of impacts on wildlife, and nature that are not told about when the solar panels become giant death rays thanks to reflection for bird wildlife.

https://abcbirds.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/PP-Solar-Energy.pdf


I will go on record here, and state that I dont have full knowledge of what is right and wrong, and I do agree we need to do what we can in the name of conservation, but a lot of rewnewable energy sources are not that renewable.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #152 –
On the environmental impact of large solar arrays I can take the piss out of some of these concepts, for example the plans from Twiggy and Turnbull. They are going to fill the outback with solar arrays, already some flights coming in off the north coast are diverted due to the risk of glare, the algorithm already exists that predicts where planes have to travel to avoid pilots being dazzled.

We can't get people to wear cloth or paper masks walking around in free open spaces, we have no hope of getting them to wear welding goggles while trapped in a plane! ;D

Anyway on a more serious note, I like the concept of transparent disposable printed solar cells, these are just becoming available. In effect you build your large solar facility in a location that allows crops to be grown underneath it, a sort of hybrid solar farm / greenhouse, it really makes sense. But I won't claim they are uber green, because the printable solar panels only have a maximum life span of between 1 and 5 years, just like a plastic covered greenhouse. Glass will last longer but isn't an option due to high cost and weight, the benefit of lasting 10 or 15 years just isn't justified, the printed solar cells aren't as efficient but they are about two orders of magnitude cheaper for the same given area even accounting for disposal or recycling costs.

At the moment though, the industry is targeting the lamination of these printed solar films into glass to provide high rise buildings with solar from windows. To me this is not a sensible use of the technology, but it probably delivers the inventors the highest bang for buck in the short term.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #153 –
Quote from: LP – on
Solar cells are the industrial waste of the next few decade, they aren't subject to recycling regulations and aren't compatible with most recycling anyway, on average they are unlikely to make it to the stated/rated design life, and disposing of them is not accounted for in the green equations. Renewable is a furphy, because it assumes the solar panels are everlasting, but they are the new asbestos of the 2030s and beyond! Renewable now, but later, not my problem, NIMBY!

FWIW, there are already warehouses around Sydney and Melbourne, filling up with failed, faulty or outdated solar panels waiting for someone to come up with a solution.

There's no doubt that EOL solar panels are a problem that needs to be resolved. But it will only happen if technology and legislation work together to do things right. There's more to renewable than solar, however.

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #154 –
And when did any single government plan ever come in on budget?  China gets a free pass on 2050 as they're (supposedly) a developing country that lands probes on Mars !  The rot's started there as they're desperate for clean coal (ours) but can't bring themselves to admit they've stuffed up with their import bans.

Nuclear is the only way to go.  And we've cornered the market on reserves of uranium.  I need add no more as other members have enunciated it well enough.

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #155 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
There's no doubt that EOL solar panels are a problem that needs to be resolved. But it will only happen if technology and legislation work together to do things right. There's more to renewable than solar, however.
I apologise if I seem cynical and dismissive, but this is an area of R&D I've had some indirect connection to now for over a decade. I've seen all sorts of schemes green or zero carbon gilded and delivered to my desk as the solution, only to find they all depend on the wilful ignorance of the investor. Wind, waves, tide, sun, geothermal, they all have issues, none are what they portray themselves to be! It's my firm opinion the key to a quick sustainable result is diversity and competition, when in fact most spend their time lobbying for protection and exclusivity.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #156 –
Quote from: capcom – on
And when did any single government plan ever come in on budget?  China gets a free pass on 2050 as they're (supposedly) a developing country that lands probes on Mars !  The rot's started there as they're desperate for clean coal (ours) but can't bring themselves to admit they've stuffed up with their import bans.

Nuclear is the only way to go.  And we've cornered the market on reserves of uranium.  I need add no more as other members have enunciated it well enough.



The fascination with Mars intrigues me.  Fundamentally, I love space, science et al, and on a human level, we need to solve the future problem of what happens when the Sun starts to expand before it retracts to a white dwarf.  Eventually it will swallow the earth, but will be out of energy by then.  Apparently, the moons of Jupiter are more likely to be habitable based on the fact that they have oceans. 

Ultimately, its probably all about Iron Ore as to why the red planet is the most fascinating.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #157 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
The fascination with Mars intrigues me.  Fundamentally, I love space, science et al, and on a human level, we need to solve the future problem of what happens when the Sun starts to expand before it retracts to a white dwarf.  Eventually it will swallow the earth, but will be out of energy by then.  Apparently, the moons of Jupiter are more likely to be habitable based on the fact that they have oceans. 

Ultimately, its probably all about Iron Ore as to why the red planet is the most fascinating.

10 billion years from now, the sun will die.  And most likely take the solar system with it.  The oceans are on Jupiter's moon(s) not Jupiter itself.  We should ask Adam Bandit for advice.

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #158 –
Quote from: capcom – on
10 billion years from now, the sun will die.  And most likely take the solar system with it.  The oceans are on Jupiter's moon(s) not Jupiter itself.  We should ask Adam Bandit for advice.

I hope we manage to snag a flag before that happens!
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #159 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
I hope we manage to snag a flag before that happens!
As ever the eternal optimist!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #161 –
Quote from: capcom – on
10 billion years from now, the sun will die.  And most likely take the solar system with it.  The oceans are on Jupiter's moon(s) not Jupiter itself.  We should ask Adam Bandit for advice.
Wont need a Sun,  mankind will be glowing in the dark after countless vaccine jabs and boosters.....
Elon Musk might find mankind a new planet and pronounce himself leader of the Universe...Bonza airlines will be running passenger rockets between the new planet and the old earth.😉

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #162 –
Just need an exoplanet and a wormhole EB.  When the JWT (James Webb Telescope) launches in December, we'll eventually get images that'll make Hubble look like a child's 2 dollar toy.

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #163 –
Quote from: capcom – on
10 billion years from now, the sun will die.  And most likely take the solar system with it.  The oceans are on Jupiter's moon(s) not Jupiter itself.  We should ask Adam Bandit for advice.
Isnt that what I wrote?
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson