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Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #300 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Using these flaky numbers to calculate costs of power generation is a bit flawed. For instance every renewable doesn't calculate based on retiring and the carbon footprint to manufacture.  Apparently you can make renewable energy with no pollutants. 

Meanwhile over at nuclear energy land how many carbon offsets need to be calculated to gather the cost of said energy?

Oh look, one is more expensive than the other.

Its a junk comparison IMHO and fails to tell the story.


Its with that kind of calculation that makes nuclear more viable in Australia.

Whatever it is you use, coal or uranium, you have to get it out of the ground.

You need less uranium by comparison to coal to get 'x' amount of gigawatts.....so less mining costs and/or damage to the environment as a result.
All that happens before you even get to burning/heating anything.
 

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #301 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Using these flaky numbers to calculate costs of power generation is a bit flawed. For instance every renewable doesn't calculate based on retiring and the carbon footprint to manufacture.  Apparently you can make renewable energy with no pollutants. 

Meanwhile over at nuclear energy land how many carbon offsets need to be calculated to gather the cost of said energy?

Oh look, one is more expensive than the other.

Its a junk comparison IMHO and fails to tell the story.

Whole-life cost (WLC) is just that Thry.  It includes planning cost, initial cost, operational cost, maintenance burden and eventual deconstruction and disposal costs.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #302 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Whole-life cost (WLC) is just that Thry.  It includes planning cost, initial cost, operational cost, maintenance burden and eventual deconstruction and disposal costs.
Which is a great example, fudging the numbers by making one source operate at peak capacity far longer than it really can, and the competitor systems redundant /decommissioned long before they are done.

@DJC , I understand why you take the position that you take, I get it, and I agree whole heartedly with the goals behind green energy, renewables and low carbon, but long term the public and political debate has to be genuine or it's going to end in energy anarchy. The end result of all sides selling the public gold painted turds!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #303 –
Quote from: LP – on
Which is a great example, fudging the numbers by making one source operate at peak capacity far longer than it really can, and the competitor systems redundant /decommissioned long before they are done.

@DJC , I understand why you take the position that you take, I get it, and I agree whole heartedly with the goals behind green energy, renewables and low carbon, but long term the public and political debate has to be genuine or it's going to end in energy anarchy. The end result of all sides selling the public gold painted turds!

The bottom line is that the decision-makers, that is, the corporates, banks, super funds, investors, economists, futurists, treasurers, heads of state, politburos, etc, have crunched the numbers and the end result is that they have decided that nuclear power is too expensive and has too great a lead time to make a meaningful difference to climate change.  There will be ongoing minor growth in funds spent on nuclear power as small modular reactors and/or molten salt reactors replace some conventional nuclear power plants but there are no signs of a major take up.  According to PwC's "The Future of Energy", it is unlikely that the global funds spent on nuclear power generation will rise above 12% of the total global power generation spend.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #304 –
Quote from: DJC – on
The bottom line is that the decision-makers, that is, the corporates, banks, super funds, investors, economists, futurists, treasurers, heads of state, politburos, etc, have crunched the numbers and the end result is that they have decided that nuclear power is too expensive and has too great a lead time to make a meaningful difference to climate change.  There will be ongoing minor growth in funds spent on nuclear power as small modular reactors and/or molten salt reactors replace some conventional nuclear power plants but there are no signs of a major take up.  According to PwC's "The Future of Energy", it is unlikely that the global funds spent on nuclear power generation will rise above 12% of the total global power generation spend.
Not at all, that's a spin on the events, they have crunched the numbers but it's political numbers not economic numbers that are the issue.

In countries like Germany and Japan the dawning economic reality of moving too fast towards renewables for low carbon energy is stalling progress, the promises aren't being meet and the risk of doing long term damage to the effort significant. Even for the green politicians it's become too much of a hot potato and targets are being curtailed. Actions speak louder than words, unless people think residents in those countries are crap at math, economic math, environmental math, social math! :o

Wind energy slows and disrupts low level weather patterns, already shown to impact global warming by slowing surface air flows resulting in additional heating, and then it generates huge amounts of hard waste that as yet has no recycling pathway. There are new 100% recyclable versions coming on stream, but currently the cost of being 100% renewable is about 3x higher with 1/2 the operating life. They have to pull the plug on the 100% recyclable stuff early because if it wears out too much you start throwing parts away! A trick of green reporting is to mix 100% recyclable figures with non-recyclable performance and lifetime.

Solar PV as much as people think it will last like a pane of glass, doesn't, it's energy density drops continuously from day one, and the rate of diminishing return depends on the harshness of the environment. Put Solar PV in the outback or a desert and it will generate heaps of energy but last 1/2 as long, and if it's remote you need infrastructure to get it to where people live, often right through the guts of the best arable land! Then like wind there is the issue of legacy hard waste, not trivial amounts but huge volumes of it, none of it able to be recycled now or in the near future. Newer cheaper but less efficient Solar PV technologies like perovskite need 10x the land area and are made using toxic elements like lead, cadmium and arsenic, they degrade over time into the water table and underlying / surrounding land cannot be used for food production. They can be made without the toxic component, but then they need 30x to 100x the land.

Hydro, Tidal and Wave have massive hard waste legacies, and dramatically alter the local environments into which they are placed. For Tidal and Wave the economics of scaling are ambiguous at best, especially when the maintenance requirements for tidal or wave grow exponentially with size.

These are some simple realities of the current state of play.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #305 –
Pat Cummins has decided that Alinta energy are not green enough for him and seems to have convinced Cricket Australia to dump the Chinese Hong Kong based owned company as a sponsor.
Be interested to see how political and green he gets with his IPL team and all those rupees, of course the IPL is sponsored by those well known providers of crap cars and pollution in Tata Motors who have a large factory in Kolkata where he plays cricket for the Knightriders.
I believe the Dockers are being pressured to dump their lucrative Woodside sponsorship by ex players like Dale Kickett and others. Of course Woodside have had a bumper year and are overflowing in cash and Freo are looking at a nice rise in sponsorship money so a tad awkward for them.
Interesting times in the new Green world of Sport..


Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #306 –
Speaking of batteries, I'm on my 4th device that is showing evidence of the swollen lithium battery.  Causes expansion from the inside out, degrades performance, storage and the gascan be toxic. 

Thats a phone, multiple laptops and a power bank.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #307 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
Pat Cummins has decided that Alinta energy are not green enough for him and seems to have convinced Cricket Australia to dump the Chinese Hong Kong based owned company as a sponsor.
Be interested to see how political and green he gets with his IPL team and all those rupees, of course the IPL is sponsored by those well known providers of crap cars and pollution in Tata Motors who have a large factory in Kolkata where he plays cricket for the Knightriders.
I believe the Dockers are being pressured to dump their lucrative Woodside sponsorship by ex players like Dale Kickett and others. Of course Woodside have had a bumper year and are overflowing in cash and Freo are looking at a nice rise in sponsorship money so a tad awkward for them.
Interesting times in the new Green world of Sport..



I would pull my sponsorship instantly and make them starve, especially the imbeciles at woman's netball. Fargum.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #308 –
Lydia Thorpe lol.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #309 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Lydia Thorpe lol.
What many of the popularist politicians do borders on social gaslighting, they manipulate minority groups and whip them into a fever, often over issues that do not really exist, and usually for personal fame and benefit and very rarely for the greater good.

But they are really just copying the behaviour of the media.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #310 –
Interesting to hear that Vic Labor is effectively declaring the privatisation of energy in the state a failure, I suppose when we see the decaying infrastructure, it's very very hard to disagree!

The capitalists wanted the profitable part, mostly the power stations, and basically let the rest of the kit rot. Now it needs major overhaul, they are bailing out in the name of low carbon energy, but even the low carbon options need the basic infrastructure!

Hospitals, factories, schools, transport, hospitality, won't operate on a microgrids.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #311 –
Quote from: madbluboy – on
Lydia Thorpe lol.
I guess she is the first bikie chick to become a Senator, small world with the Martin connection.
You would have to be very green in the job pardon the pun to think that connection wasnt going to surface at some stage in your career and bite you.

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #312 –
Quote from: ElwoodBlues1 – on
I guess she is the first bikie chick to become a Senator, small world with the Martin connection.
You would have to be very green in the job pardon the pun to think that connection wasnt going to surface at some stage in your career and bite you.

It's not so much the connection but her failure to disclose it that bit her on the moom.  It's all well and good to maintain the rage, but you have to be clever about how you do it and always follow process.

Actually, after reading a little more, it seems that the Senator tried to be too clever.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #313 –
It's not too hard to predict the demise of these rock throwers, the old saying applies, live by the sword die by the sword!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: The Climate, Environment and Energy Thread

Reply #314 –
Quote from: DJC – on
It's not so much the connection but her failure to disclose it that bit her on the moom.  It's all well and good to maintain the rage, but you have to be clever about how you do it and always follow process.

Yes, I agree.