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Lawyer X - Police

I'v followed this debate with some interest, and in particular as is my bent how the media portray this story.

I'm made curious by this almost universal lack of a single perspective, there is almost zero commentary about "The Truth", an absence that to some degree exposes the hypocrisy of people.

Sure LawyerX is a snitch, but isn't that how the police get their information, and isn't that also how the media get their information as well?

To paraphrase, the outrage seems to be "Lawyers don't protect and project my lies!", and police have used nefarious means to expose the lie a lawyer used to protect a client.

Is a lie really privileged information when the lawyer knows it is a lie?

What of the lawyer's liability in this?

Even in the growing list of appeals, there seems to be little regard for the truth!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Lawyer X - Police

Reply #1
We live in interesting times, Spotted One.

I, also, find myself perplexed by how lowly 'honesty/truth' is regarded in so many hallways of industry, law and politics.

Holy [email protected], we need only look at so many leaders of nations to see how successful bullsh1t has become. If you're blindly loyal to a political ideology, as one example, you'll remain loyal to that ideology even if it's leader(s) is a blatant liar!

As for lawyer X... I remain astonished at why she is being demonized. Yes, she deceived her clients but it was to put her dishonest client behind bars... oh the moral dilemma. She lied, yet did so for a perceived greater good. What do we make of that? A simple yet powerful statement of the world we live in? The Mafia, in the main, was brought down by cops who'd infiltrated their ranks... snitches... they deceived for the greater good. Sneaky exposed the crooks... honest cops had no chance. Time to go live on a deserted island!
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Lawyer X - Police

Reply #2
A lawyer's job is to act in the best interests of their client - which is why it takes a 'special' type of person to be a criminal lawyer/barrister.  This brings up the age old question:  How do you defend someone that you know is guilty?  Often by plea bargaining, pointing the finger at someone else, looking at legal loopholes, often in the gathering and presentation of evidence (which there are a lot of rules around).  This is to ensure that there is a 'fair' trial - remember innocent until proven guilty.

I think there are a couple of lawyers on here - they will know better than me.

Most people will agree that the Lawyer X situation put a few people in gaol where they should be.  Unfortunately, the rules (that these people don't abide by) mean that there was too much evidence that shouldn't have been used and so they get off.

Is this right?  Good moral and ethical questions for our times.

As for Politicians and what they are doing.  May the one who looks over us be the judge!  It is despicable the lack of truth and honesty.


Re: Lawyer X - Police

Reply #3
@dodge

In this case we aren't talking about shoplifters, these are felons who have executed people and some even injured bystanders in the process!

The lawyers have an even bigger responsibility in my opinion, it's called humanity.

I realise I'm very cynical, but it seems to me the wallet overrules the conscience!

I cannot differentiate politicians and lawyers in this instance, the behaviour is/seems comparable.
The Force Awakens!

Re: Lawyer X - Police

Reply #4
As for lawyer X... I remain astonished at why she is being demonized. Yes, she deceived her clients but it was to put her dishonest client behind bars... oh the moral dilemma. She lied, yet did so for a perceived greater good. What do we make of that? A simple yet powerful statement of the world we live in? The Mafia, in the main, was brought down by cops who'd infiltrated their ranks... snitches... they deceived for the greater good. Sneaky exposed the crooks... honest cops had no chance. Time to go live on a deserted island!
@Baggers‍  It seems to say something about the people making the laws, those implementing them and those defending them.

I've have two relatives who have worked at the Bar, both left for the corporate world and eventually one went NGO. They tell me you'll never meet a bigger collection of crooks and scoundrels than at a Bar association event! One describes the Bar as the same basic bunch of criminals observed from the other side of the fence. Almost a definition of disillusionment!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Lawyer X - Police

Reply #5
I don't disagree at all, LP.

What is 500 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?  A good start.

Unfortunately there is a large group of people that look for loopholes - work legally, rather than morally/ethically/humanely.  While intention of the law needs to be taken into account, it often doesn't appear to.

I often talk about the tax act (exciting, hey).  When it was originally written in the 1920s, it wouldn't have been a very big document.  Over time, where people have found ways and means to legally reduce their tax (against intention of the Act), the Act has been amended.  It is now a massive document and there is a lot of work for tax lawyers and tax accountants.  Legal?  Yes.  Moral/ethical? questionable.  I stopped working in tax over 20 years ago.  I paid more tax on $44k than a client who 'earned' $800k+.

Re: Lawyer X - Police

Reply #6
I stopped working in tax over 20 years ago.  I paid more tax on $44k than a client who 'earned' $800k+.
Yes, the problem is clearly the enablers, but I don't get why the media pile on the train, unless maybe it's a gravy train!

In that case, who does Joe Average trust, because it looks from the outside like the morality goes to the highest bidder!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Lawyer X - Police

Reply #7
@Baggers‍  It seems to say something about the people making the laws, those implementing them and those defending them.

I've have two relatives who have worked at the Bar, both left for the corporate world and eventually one went NGO. They tell me you'll never meet a bigger collection of crooks and scoundrels than at a Bar association event! One describes the Bar as the same basic bunch of criminals observed from the other side of the fence. Almost a definition of disillusionment!

Have a look at the backgrounds of many politicians both here and overseas.
Nothing ever ends

Re: Lawyer X - Police

Reply #8
Have a look at the backgrounds of many politicians both here and overseas.
Is a Politician a failed Lawyer, or is a Lawyer a failed Politician?

Can someone please pose this question on Q&A?
(Like that'll get you an answer! :o )
The Force Awakens!

Re: Lawyer X - Police

Reply #9
Is a Politician a failed Lawyer, or is a Lawyer a failed Politician?

Can someone please pose this question on Q&A?
(Like that'll get you an answer! :o )

Failures in both instances.
Nothing ever ends


Re: Lawyer X - Police

Reply #11
I think that we generalise too much with this stuff and overcomplicate.

Police need to gather the evidence cleanly and by the book.

Lawyers need to have confidentiality with their clients, and be for the most part, ambivalent to whether or not the person is guilty but ensure that the protocols followed are above board.

Thats the only way to ensure that innocent people are not put away to suit the legal system.  Its also to ensure that guilty people are truly guilty and not just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

They also need to be sure that their defenders will not become the reason they get put away because they divulged information that incriminates them when seeking legal advice.  That being said, if Lawyers know that their clients are guilty, they are supposed to drop those cases else they become accomplices.
Come on you Blue FLAGGERS!!

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Lawyer X - Police

Reply #12
Lawyers need to have confidentiality with their clients, and be for the most part, ambivalent to whether or not the person is guilty but ensure that the protocols followed are above board.

Thats the only way to ensure that innocent people are not put away to suit the legal system.  Its also to ensure that guilty people are truly guilty and not just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Are these two points consistent?

There must be many scenarios where a lawyer knows an innocent person has been jailed wrongly because one of their clients is guilty of that very crime!

I see the Police and Lawyers as Yin and Yang, one cannot function without the other and therefore it is ridiculous to expect zero overlap.
The Force Awakens!

Re: Lawyer X - Police

Reply #13
Are these two points consistent?

There must be many scenarios where a lawyer knows an innocent person has been jailed wrongly because one of their clients is guilty of that very crime!
I see the Police and Lawyers as Yin and Yang, one cannot function without the other and therefore it is ridiculous to expect zero overlap. So there is irony when each portrays the other as a mortal enemy!
 
That being said, if Lawyers know that their clients are guilty, they are supposed to drop those cases else they become accomplices.
Does it function that way though?

Could you argue that a lawyer dropping a case is a tell, a defacto concession of client guilt!

@Thryleon  What is "Good" as in "Good vs Bad" Is bad the police leveraging a greedy and narcissistic lawyer to put a career "child killing drug peddler" off the streets? Some will no doubt claim the high ground, and advise us to turn the other cheek. Tell that to the parents who have watched a child die from a drug overdose!

Lawyers and socialists will argue against those actions and infer an anarchy of no limits is the ultimate destination, but I seriously doubt our democracy crumbles when a bad lawyer goes bad and the police leverage that event!

Removing access to lawyers by instilling paranoia might be the best thing to happen to the crooks, from a public perspective!

Maybe the public anger needs to be directed at those who award the appeals? A mighty deep and dark pit!
The Force Awakens!

Re: Lawyer X - Police

Reply #14
The idea Lawyer X was horrified by the criminality of her clients and decided to put morality above legal rules might be a bit of a self-serving fantasy. It seems the genesis of all this was when she was arrested by police for drug offending when she was a law student. The police seem to have used this “kompromat” to turn her à la the KGB. I haven’t bothered to stay on top of her story but IIRC she was a CI before the Purana taskforce was a gleam in the Police Commissioner’s eye.

Looked at in this way, would it be okay for the police to send in a spy to manipulate legal proceedings and feed information to the police? It reminds me of accounts which suggest as much as 10% of some civil rights and other groups in the 60s were paid FBI informants (who may have influenced events) and illegal wiretaps were commonplace.