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Re: France recalls their ambassadors

Reply #30 –
Quote from: LP – on
A mate from the UK who has spent quite a bit of time as the MD of a French Technology company says Australia was lucky to get out of the Sub deal while it could. He said working and dealing with the French is a 24x7 effort managing degraded expectations and looking for future loopholes to close.

He thinks France must have invented the "Rubber Time" that is famous in Asian and Pacific Island regions, and that they have turned C'est La Vie into a way of life when it comes to over-promising and under-delivering!

Today I watched an excerpt from a recent senate estimates committee in which a senior public servant was asked about the planning process for the submarines and cost overruns. 

His answer was that the process was progressing as anticipated, that the costs had not blown out at all and were within the limits set when the contract was signed.

Re: France recalls their ambassadors

Reply #31 –
Quote from: Macca37 – on
His answer was that the process was progressing as anticipated, that the costs had not blown out at all and were within the limits set when the contract was signed.
Did they say what those limits were, or was he inferring it was still $90B?

I've heard the real budget was almost double!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: France recalls their ambassadors

Reply #32 –
IMHO the fact that we got ourselves into this contract in the first place was disaster and a self inflicted wound. The project involved converting and reengineering nuclear powered vessels to use diesel power. What could possibly go wrong?

There seemed also to be too much focus on creating jobs in Australia and maybe a loss of focus on the challenges that could be faced, let alone the longer term strategic needs.

Anyway,  it's a disaster whichever way you look at it.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: France recalls their ambassadors

Reply #33 –
Quote from: LP – on
Did they say what those limits were, or was he inferring it was still $90B?

I've heard the real budget was almost double!

It DID blow out ... thanks to Turnbull who wouldn't touch nuclear and the French who had no idea what they were getting into.

Re: France recalls their ambassadors

Reply #34 –
Quote from: Blue Moon – on
You can rationalise and justify anything in this world, and there seems to be a few people barracking for Morrison, but Macron, Biden and Turnbull have all given a fairly honest assessment of him in recent days. People need to decide what their personal values are and decide whether this submarine fiasco coincides with these values.

I'm not sure we've done the right thing and Morrison has some explaining to do, but Macron is a rejected suitor (and probably a bit pissed about the whole AUKUS arrangement. That's probably fair enough because France could/should be involved), Turnbull is just a sad, bitter man who'll have a shot any time he gets a chance,  and 'Smokin Joe' doesn't have a clue who Morrison is.

Re: France recalls their ambassadors

Reply #35 –
Quote from: Lods – on
.................. but Macron is a rejected suitor
I think what Macron thinks of Morrison as a measure of either Morrison or Australia is the wrong measure.

For me the tell was how quickly Macron jumped back into bed with the USA, the country that mowed his lawn, it shows you how superficial the offense taken and communicated really is!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: France recalls their ambassadors

Reply #36 –
Quote from: Lods – on
I'm not sure we've done the right thing and Morrison has some explaining to do, but Macron is a rejected suitor (and probably a bit pissed about the whole AUKUS arrangement. That's probably fair enough because France could/should be involved), Turnbull is just a sad, bitter man who'll have a shot any time he gets a chance,  and 'Smokin Joe' doesn't have a clue who Morrison is.

Turnbull got the @rse, deservedly so.  He hates not being noticed, same as Rudd.  Both are absolute nobodies and nasty sociopaths.

Re: France recalls their ambassadors

Reply #37 –
Quote from: Blue Moon – on
You can rationalise and justify anything in this world, and there seems to be a few people barracking for Morrison, but Macron, Biden and Turnbull have all given a fairly honest assessment of him in recent days. People need to decide what their personal values are and decide whether this submarine fiasco coincides with these values.

The thing about the Liar from the Shire is that he's not afraid to throw anybody under a bus if there's a chance that it might help his image/career.  If anyone's looking for a definition of sociopath, any aspects of Morrison's behaviour from when he was sacked as head of Tourism Australia to the Macron fiasco will put you on the right track.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: France recalls their ambassadors

Reply #38 –
Macron is up for re-election next year and is not looking too good by all accounts.  Most of his words and actions atm are aimed at trying to improve his prospects.  Not saying that Scomo wasn't "a bit clumsy" to paraphrase Joe, but the little Napoleon is certainly making good use of him in his own electoral battle.
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: France recalls their ambassadors

Reply #39 –
Quote from: LP – on
Did they say what those limits were, or was he inferring it was still $90B?

I've heard the real budget was almost double!

From memory, I believe he said $90B plus inflation, all within the costings as of 2016.

Re: France recalls their ambassadors

Reply #40 –
There is a lot of posturing about Australias role in this, but we are small fry in the scheme of things.  This is more about EU geopolitics and Brexit than anything to do with Australia.

We are simply a tool for the UK in this case.

Whether or not either deal was good or bad for Australia is neither here nor there in this case.  It might be what we are focussing on, but when you detach the emotion from it, we have torn up one sub deal and signed another for a very similar outcome. 
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: France recalls their ambassadors

Reply #41 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Whether or not either deal was good or bad for Australia is neither here nor there in this case.  It might be what we are focussing on, but when you detach the emotion from it, we have torn up one sub deal and signed another for a very similar outcome.

There was a third option ... and it should have been pursued

Re: France recalls their ambassadors

Reply #42 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
There is a lot of posturing about Australias role in this, but we are small fry in the scheme of things.  This is more about EU geopolitics and Brexit than anything to do with Australia.

We are simply a tool for the UK in this case.

Whether or not either deal was good or bad for Australia is neither here nor there in this case.  It might be what we are focussing on, but when you detach the emotion from it, we have torn up one sub deal and signed another for a very similar outcome.

The french subs were to be diesel powered, the new deal provides for nuclear powered vessels intended to support different strategies and goals wrt China. Be interesting to see when these new subs can actually be delivered and what we will do in the meantime.  Collins Class?
Reality always wins in the end.

Re: France recalls their ambassadors

Reply #43 –
Quote from: cookie2 – on
The french subs were to be diesel powered, the new deal provides for nuclear powered vessels intended to support different strategies and goals wrt China. Be interesting to see when these new subs can actually be delivered and what we will do in the meantime.  Collins Class?
That is an issue voters must take up with our own politicians, they basically consigned us to a decade or two of limbo! I've heard beyond 2035 probably 2050.

Too many green nerds get elected that believe the Chinese or North Koreans will respect the Oz Qi or Feng Shui when they start to run out of resources at home, they tell us we don't need submarines or fighter jets we need diplomacy and a nice cup of green tea!

Because as you know, those regimes have demonstrated such a high value and respect for life in their own backyard, so we can trust them to respect our safe space and sovereignty! ::)



As a side note, given how quickly Macron went cap in hand to the USA or UK, who's side do you think he'd take if there was a crunch choice between Oz and China? Yet we expect him to honour thy Antipodeans!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"