Parenting & Discipline

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Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #30 – November 06, 2013, 07:41:08 pm

Quote from: Baggers – on November 05, 2013, 11:05:37 pm

I stand by my opinion that the proposition of striking another human-being can 'be good for them'... it is an obscene and ridiculous proposition.

Strict, clear and even rigid boundaries are important for our kids and will help them understand life on so many levels. My daughters, to this day, describe me as being a really strict parent... but never abusive or angry. Hitting is abuse. The moment you strike a child you have lost control.

I have had people say to me in regard to this stance, "I was disciplined with corporal punish and it didn't do me any harm." What a ridiculous statement. How would you know unless you led parallel lives of the spanked and not spanked?! That is the only way you could possibly know.

Please explain to me how corporal punishment can be 'done correctly?'

Here is another pet hate of mine, stating opinion as fact and/or absolute. I admit it's easy to do, and while I try my hardest to stay away from it, I doubt I have a perfect record !!

I can agree that some hitting is abuse, but all? Is boxing abuse?

And for your second statement, In my experience it is so far from the truth it's not funny. This might help answer your last question as well !!

My parents set very clear boundries, while we (there were 3 of us) lived in our parents home, it was made very clear to us that we had to play by their rules. If the rules were broken, there were consequences. In my primary school years, the consequence of disobeying most rules was a good spanking.
After being caught doing the wrong thing, we would be sent to our room (privately, we were never embarrassed in front of anyone). After being given a few minutes to think about why we were there either parent would come in and explain clearly what we had done wrong and what the punishment would be.
They always used a wooden paddle (mum said 'her hands were made for love, the 'stick' as we called it, was for discipline).
A good smack across the backside would always produce tears and often a pretty sharp sting causing immediate pain. For me personally, I don't ever remember any bruising, or long term pain from receiving a smack.
After we were smacked they would ask us if we were sorry for what we had done? Silence(or more crying) or a no, would result in another smack, a yes and there would be a last reminder not to do it again, a hug and it was never mentioned again.

I do not remember ever seeing either of my parents smack or even touch us kids in anger or in any way that was out of control. Their discipline was very clear, methodic and controlled. And always done in love (we were told this, but as we grew we could also see it), yes we heard the old line of 'it's hurting me more than it's hurting you' !!

This is my story, my parents are far from perfect, and this is my 25+ year memory of how things worked for us. But IMO the end result speaks for itself, Mum and Dad now have 3 very well adjusted, well mannered etc adult children who love and respect their parents and are very grateful for the upbringing that they were given.

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #31 – November 06, 2013, 08:02:59 pm

Quote from: Amers – on November 06, 2013, 07:41:08 pm

I can agree that some hitting is abuse, but all? Is boxing abuse?

Boxing the hell out of a kid would be though.

There in lies a significant problem, who sets the boundary for what is unreasonable and what is OK.

EB1s daughter could have stabbed the bully "in defense" and someone would have happily argued it was justified, but what if the bully had stabbed EB1s daughter "in defense" after having their nose broken?

A little tap from mum in the supermarket for throwing a tantrum in the lolly isle might be OK, but it doesn't translate into a little tap from dad's fist for spilling his beer or not finishing a task to his satisfaction.

You cannot argue for the gray areas, because you have no control over who defines the grayness.

I am not one to specifically buy into political correctness, fundamentalism or liberation movements. But I can see that in cases like the issue of corporal punishment any gray areas will be the area that creates the problem.

While fundamentalists might argue the rights of many to use limited corporal punishment, if the abused child grows into the likes of Martin Bryant we all lose and we all pay.

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #32 – November 06, 2013, 08:06:27 pm

No beg pardons in my household. If you'd done the wrong thing you copped it. "You do the crime, you do the time."

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #33 – November 06, 2013, 08:11:22 pm

Quote from: Amers – on November 06, 2013, 07:41:08 pm

Quote from: Baggers – on November 05, 2013, 11:05:37 pm

I stand by my opinion that the proposition of striking another human-being can 'be good for them'... it is an obscene and ridiculous proposition.

Strict, clear and even rigid boundaries are important for our kids and will help them understand life on so many levels. My daughters, to this day, describe me as being a really strict parent... but never abusive or angry. Hitting is abuse. The moment you strike a child you have lost control.

I have had people say to me in regard to this stance, "I was disciplined with corporal punish and it didn't do me any harm." What a ridiculous statement. How would you know unless you led parallel lives of the spanked and not spanked?! That is the only way you could possibly know.

Please explain to me how corporal punishment can be 'done correctly?'

Here is another pet hate of mine, stating opinion as fact and/or absolute. I admit it's easy to do, and while I try my hardest to stay away from it, I doubt I have a perfect record !!

I can agree that some hitting is abuse, but all? Is boxing abuse?

And for your second statement, In my experience it is so far from the truth it's not funny. This might help answer your last question as well !!

My parents set very clear boundries, while we (there were 3 of us) lived in our parents home, it was made very clear to us that we had to play by their rules. If the rules were broken, there were consequences. In my primary school years, the consequence of disobeying most rules was a good spanking.
After being caught doing the wrong thing, we would be sent to our room (privately, we were never embarrassed in front of anyone). After being given a few minutes to think about why we were there either parent would come in and explain clearly what we had done wrong and what the punishment would be.
They always used a wooden paddle (mum said 'her hands were made for love, the 'stick' as we called it, was for discipline).
A good smack across the backside would always produce tears and often a pretty sharp sting causing immediate pain. For me personally, I don't ever remember any bruising, or long term pain from receiving a smack.
After we were smacked they would ask us if we were sorry for what we had done? Silence(or more crying) or a no, would result in another smack, a yes and there would be a last reminder not to do it again, a hug and it was never mentioned again.

I do not remember ever seeing either of my parents smack or even touch us kids in anger or in any way that was out of control. Their discipline was very clear, methodic and controlled. And always done in love (we were told this, but as we grew we could also see it), yes we heard the old line of 'it's hurting me more than it's hurting you' !!

This is my story, my parents are far from perfect, and this is my 25+ year memory of how things worked for us. But IMO the end result speaks for itself, Mum and Dad now have 3 very well adjusted, well mannered etc adult children who love and respect their parents and are very grateful for the upbringing that they were given.

It is always difficult to judge the actions of previous generations by current standards. If we applied the same logic to football coaches, then Ron Barassi and John Kennedy in modern times would be seen as mindless thugs who had 'lost the players'.

Everyone (well, almost everyone) who becomes a parent wants to do the best job they can, and the type of parenting each of us received will heavily influence what type of parent we become. Not everyone's right will be someone else's right, and not everyone's wrong will be wrong for others.

For me, the most important ingredient is consistency, from BOTH parents. If kids know exactly where the line is, and that there will be consequences (such as no Playstation) if the line is crossed, they will receive the message they need.

Kids are like video recorders - they will replay all of your best habits and all of your worst habits back to you, over and over again. The smartest thing to do is promote your good habits and suppress your bad ones.

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #34 – November 06, 2013, 08:55:28 pm

Quote from: tonyo – on November 06, 2013, 08:11:22 pm

It is always difficult to judge the actions of previous generations by current standards. If we applied the same logic to football coaches, then Ron Barassi and John Kennedy in modern times would be seen as mindless thugs who had 'lost the players'.

Everyone (well, almost everyone) who becomes a parent wants to do the best job they can, and the type of parenting each of us received will heavily influence what type of parent we become. Not everyone's right will be someone else's right, and not everyone's wrong will be wrong for others.

For me, the most important ingredient is consistency, from BOTH parents. If kids know exactly where the line is, and that there will be consequences (such as no Playstation) if the line is crossed, they will receive the message they need.

Kids are like video recorders - they will replay all of your best habits and all of your worst habits back to you, over and over again. The smartest thing to do is promote your good habits and suppress your bad ones.

Tonyo, I agree that there are many different methods of discipline and bringing kids up, and none of them are necessarily better than any other. If it works, great !!!

To me Baggers seem's like a good parent, and has the results to prove it. I'm likely to raise any kids I have quite differently. I don't think that makes me any better or worse than Baggers or anyone else, it just makes me different !!! I just hope everyone's ok with that !!

Totally agree with your comments about consistency and kids mirroring behavior too !!

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #35 – November 06, 2013, 09:06:54 pm

Wow, what a loaded topic. I don't know what is actually right and neither does anyone here, because there isn't a definitive guide that proves what is right, so we go on what we believe. I will state though that somethings are clearly wrong and parents 'belting' kids is clearly wrong, parents calling kids words like b****, c***, a***hole etc is wrong.

My children are 12 and 13 year old boys and like a lot of children, yes they are not perfect and yes they are a bit lazy around the house and yes they love to wrestle and fight with each other if left to do that, but overall they are well behaved.

They live with me full time with some weekends with their mother, for the majority of their life they lived primarily with her until a few years ago. She cannot discipline the boys at all and they simply do not listen, to the degree that she has to regularly call me when they aroe there and I talk to them and they behave.
I have smacked by boys on the backside during their life, maybe 4-5 times each, for very serious infractions and never hard or with the intent to hurt, their mother however does. Personally I don't like when I do smack them, but it is not done in anger on the times it has been, it has been calculating and done because I believed that a sterner message was needed and the smack was symbolic.

However, what I personally find is that I don't make empty threats ever, for all of our life if I said there was a punishment for an action, there was a punishment, be that 1 month without electronics, 1 week of writing lines after school or off to bed early. If they were warned and subsequently misbehaved, the consequence was enforced.
They know this and when I say to do something it is almost always done immediately, they have hardly ever talked back and they are always complimented on their behaviour in public.
The other thing is that up to this age still, the favorite thing for them to do is something with a parent, be it play basketball, watch a movie, go for a ride or a swim... basically anything.
I think with that being the case, they generally don't want to lose those times and that is far more powerful than a smack could ever be.

I don't judge a parent who thinks a smack on the bottom is the appropriate punishment as often as they reasonably see fit, nor one who has never smacked their child... I think as long as it is not abusive, it is a parental choice.

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #36 – November 06, 2013, 09:28:10 pm

I think it is good to share the stories of our experience, we can all learn and/or be encouraged by them.

Good post MIO.

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #37 – November 06, 2013, 09:45:11 pm

Many excellent posts with some great ideas here. Something we can all take something into our own lives. I have 2 girls myself one going 13 and one going 15. Its a great laugh when you hear parenting experts from America on a Oprah style show promoting their books of wisdom, and the last thing you learn is that with their busy lifestyle they chose never to have children. To avoid being selfish and not giving children the attention they deserve and need. Experts who can only comment by others experiences and not their own. This topic being a delicate issue I will add just a few points I try to use in my everyday life with children. I have 2 children and have been an athletics track and field coach for a few years now. Ages 6 to 17. I do not have all the answers in life and probably very few to be honest. Here are a few things to consider.

1. Parents and role models can be friendly or friends but are not best friends with their children. This can create issues. Once children view you as purely a friend the authority of the parent can be something of a compromise. Watch the fine line here because it is easy to cross.

2. Communication. If your children can't speak to you about any issue in confidence you will have serious issues as they approach teenage years. They must feel confident to speak to you about anything. Even the silliest mistakes they make, should still allow them to never be scared to tell you. Watch how you respond to this situation. Punish mistakes while complimenting honesty they show to you, their role model.

3. Two parents must be on the same page all the time. Even if they are both wrong. You can make mistakes and explain this to your children. Appologise to them and explain why the misunderstanding happened. Parents are human, just like children are.

4. Wrong. What is wrong ? Wrong is not getting caught. Wrong is wrong. doing the wrong thing and getting away with it doesn't make it O.K. Never. Children must understand the difference.

5. Love and attention. Children need to feel loved. They need to love back. They need attention, and time with humans. They need to feel a part of something special. Avoid being too busy for your children. If you are too busy for them, you are really being too selfish for yourself. Your time for yourself will make it appear they are less important, and that they are not your number one priority.

6. Consequences. Before you dish out a consequence think of the same consequence being dished out to you as a child. What is considered harsh. What is considered soft. What would make you think twice about doing it again. Its a hard call. It really is. Don't try being your parents. try being parents to your children.

That is about it for now. too many wise posts before mine. A cut and paste of all the previous would make an excellent book. Remember its easy to sow the seed, or to give birth. In the big picture this is the easiest thing to do. Its not easy to be a Mother or a Father. Its a learning curve you endure for you entire life.

"You spend the first few years of your childs life, teaching them to walk and talk". "You then spend the next 15 years telling them to sit down and shut up". Its true.

Good luck to all parents out there. There really is no book to this mystery. Just agree to the fact you spend your entire life learning how parenting works best, and never really master it. Teach your children how to learn and you may be half way there.

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #38 – November 06, 2013, 10:23:43 pm

I don't want to post after EVERY other persons post, I really don't !!!! But gee there is some good stuff being said !!!!

Good work Mantis !!

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #39 – November 07, 2013, 09:24:38 am

A few folks have mentioned here the importance of boundaries and consistency. Couldn't agree more.

I guess the one thing I was most consistent with (with my girls) was lying. They quickly learnt that that was the worst thing they could do... zero tolerance for lying. Hence they were always encouraged to be truthful even if it was awkward - broke something, spilled something... stuck a pencil up her sister's arse! They have given the feedback now in their adult years that being honest and truthful was about the most important thing they'd learnt from their oddball father. Plus speaking out against an obvious injustice / having a social conscience. And having a sense of humour and doing your best not to take yourself too seriously. The most obvious of course is to be committed to the Old Dark Navy Blues... yes, both girls are one-eyed supporters. Which was no easy task considering their mother (aka Satan) is a Rottingwood supporter.

That raises the next issue... and a terribly difficult one to confront. Divorce. How do you stay on the same page in this situation? This was a painful development for all concerned. Corney cliche but their mother and I married way too young... just kids. By the time we realised we were the mismatch of the decade we had two little girls... and we hung in there for years - for the kids. Bad mistake. The girls could sense it. Long story short it took a lot of love to help the girls understand it was not their fault and that they could love both parents although they were so different and couldn't get along. Time for dad to practice what he preached and be candid and honest with them (explained appropriate to their age and maturity).

But there are horror stories of one estranged partner 'demonizing' the other to the children and all this does is seriously f*ck up the kids. I did my best to teach my girls that sometimes two good people just don't get along and no one is to blame... but you do hear of bitterness overtaking love and common sense and the kids become torn. Should be a law against slating 'the other parent' to the kids.

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #40 – November 07, 2013, 11:17:07 am

Quote from: Baggers – on November 07, 2013, 09:24:38 am

But there are horror stories of one estranged partner 'demonizing' the other to the children and all this does is seriously f*ck up the kids. I did my best to teach my girls that sometimes two good people just don't get along and no one is to blame... but you do hear of bitterness overtaking love and common sense and the kids become torn. Should be a law against slating 'the other parent' to the kids.

Yep. spot on .... kids sense even the slightest friction and it's the very LAST thing they need. What's that old saying? You come into the world alone, and you leave the same way. What you do in between those two events defines who you are.

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #41 – November 07, 2013, 11:53:55 am

I don't have any kids (that I know of

) but perhaps if I did then I might have a different attitude to the whole debate. Some good points made indeed.

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #42 – November 07, 2013, 01:45:22 pm

FWIW, and not wanting to get too sentimental, having kids has been without a doubt the most rewarding thing I have ever done in my life (I have 4 well-balanced and productive members of society).

I learned far more about myself through my kids than I could ever have learned on my own.

The only advice I ever give to those who may be contemplating having kids for the first time - make sure you (and your partner) are 110% committed to the idea. It's a 24/7, 20-plus years contract, and you can't just de-list your kids at the end of the year because they won't do their homework!

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #43 – November 07, 2013, 02:29:08 pm

Quote from: tonyo – on November 07, 2013, 01:45:22 pm

FWIW, and not wanting to get too sentimental, having kids has been without a doubt the most rewarding thing I have ever done in my life (I have 4 well-balanced and productive members of society).

I learned far more about myself through my kids than I could ever have learned on my own.

The only advice I ever give to those who may be contemplating having kids for the first time - make sure you (and your partner) are 110% committed to the idea. It's a 24/7, 20-plus years contract, and you can't just de-list your kids at the end of the year because they won't do their homework!

Can you delist them if they keep you up 24/7 and are costing you too much money?

Re: Parenting & Discipline

Reply #44 – November 07, 2013, 03:08:19 pm

A rule of thumb in this debate is that a parent who does not smack their child decries those that do, they are quick to point out the proper (in their thoughts) parenting skills and those who use other methods are wrong. The truth is that both can be right. The real problem is that there are a large number of parents who have absolutely no idea of parenting and that's where both sides find their ammunition.
I know of parents who have used a smack and their children are exemplary. I have also known parents who follow the no hitting rule whose children have become monsters, both as children and as adults.
I believe that the trick of the game is a balanced approach. As on old teacher who used the strap, I used to first give a warning, followed by a brief glimpse of the leather instrument. If the matter recurred the student was asked to hold the instrument, to get the feel of what it may be like to receive it forcefully. The third time they found out the advantage of behaving better. I taught for 8 years in Broadmeadows (Broady East and Upfield) and never got to use the strap more than a couple times a year.
Today the kids have been given the idea that a teacher hitting them would be abominable but the same kids have no worries about hitting others. I often liken kids to cattle. When in a paddock they see outside the fence and are prepared to push against a fence to get to the other side. If the fence is strong they accept that and leave the fence alone. Kids are similar. They will test and push the boundaries. If the boundaries are strong the kids will remain within the acceptable area. Strength of boundaries are set by the parents. Sometimes a harsh word, sometimes a careful explanation of possible consequences will do the trick. But sometimes the strength begins to wilt under pressure and a smack will quickly bring reality back in. Note that I said a smack -NOT A BEATING. there is a vast difference. Don't blame a parent or decry for smacking their child. They may have already implemented several other approaches first before resorting to their ultimate defence.
Those parent who beat their children and/or don't try other methods first should be assisted not derided.
A good friend of mine at the time came to visit me in my new house. Their three year old when offered a soft drink and biscuits, broke the biscuits on the new carpet, poured the drink over that and proceeded to make 'biscuit pies'. Both parents laughed at their child's antics. When they didn't respond I picked up the child sat him on my knee and wouldn't let him off. They never visited again, much to my delight. The same child six years later was pushing my 5 year old daughter under the water in a mutual friend's backyard pool. He refused to stop when asked. So I went around and held him by the hair and pushed him under the water.

When I finally let him up spluttering for air, I explained that if he continued with his behaviour I would also continue with mine. The rest of the afternoon went entirely without further incident.