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Topic: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021. (Read 42559 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #105 –
Quote from: LP – on
I don't think anybody has asserted that, it is a generalisation of the reader not the author, it's no different to not everyone who boos Goodes being racist.

I wasn't necessarily speaking of the comments on this forum...but the idea that all anti vaxxers are of a like or similar cut is something that's being expressed by some folks in the community.

Perhaps my comment would have been better put like this...

The concern in this situation are that 'all protesters' at that rally are then grouped 'by some' as being of a like mind (and action).

It was a generalisation  by omission on my part.
But that's the problem.
When writing only we know our own intent.
If we leave something unclear, or focus too much on one aspect, it opens it up to the interpretation of the listener or reader.

Just what is the makeup of pandemic protesters?
After some posts regarding the strong American influence I thought I'd have a look at some of the coverage and pay a bit more attention. I had a look at several news reports.

Now it's very much dependent on what vision the TV channels chose to 'shoot and show' so it's really just a snapshot, but a couple of things stood out.

Quite a few of the 'fascists' were carrying anti fascist posters so obviously they don't regard themselves as right wing extremists

A perhaps disturbing element down the track, and perhaps more concerning than any American flag, was the number of Red Ensigns. It appears this is the 'flag of the month' for some right thinking folk. So there is no doubt there is that element to the protesters
I saw two American flags but one was tied  to the same pole as an Australian flag.

But there were also the flags of
Poland
Greece
Italy
Croatia
UK
Cyprus

The Aboriginal flag
The Eureka flag
...and a boxing Kangaroo

Good luck working that out

Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #106 –
Quote from: Lods – on

I saw two American flags but one was tied  to the same pole as an Australian flag.

But there were also the flags of
Poland
Greece
Italy
Croatia
UK
Cyprus

The Aboriginal flag
The Eureka flag
...and a boxing Kangaroo

Good luck working that out


The protesters are often quoted as saying 'the majority of people believe this, or don't want that.........'

Even when there are 'many thousands' in the marches, it still represents a significant minority of the whole population.  By having a widespread collection of symbols that everyone can recognise, it attempts to persuade the rest of us that their movement does represent a far larger proportion of society.  In reality, the only link to most of these symbols is that bearer happened to have one in the drawer at home, or popped down to Carroll & Richardson to buy one.
This is now the longest premiership drought in the history of the Carlton Football Club - more evidence of climate change?

Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #107 –
Quote from: Fat Tony – on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

I love this.

The extremes behave the same.

So much so I believe they are over compensating for themselves and their unwavering belief in their political ideology.  They cannot accept that it has flaws, ergo are militant in the application and questioning of their rules.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #108 –
Quote from: Mav – on
Surely you're joking ...

From Wikipedia:
There was never anything socialist about the Nazi Party: it was just a bait-and-switch tactic. The communists, socialists, and unions were the opposition Hitler was seeking to outmanoeuvre. It's amazing that such an obvious con is still working today. Far right policitians over in the US like Marjorie Taylor Greene are still claiming the Nazis were socialists even as we speak.

Let's put this simply: the Nazis were far right and socialists are on the left, and never the twain shall meet.

HAHAHAHAHA - just rubbish and YOU KNOW IT. Rewrite history all you want - it happened. Ordinary people were complicit and many did identify as socialists - do not try to paint over this.

Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #109 –
Quote from: spf – on
HAHAHAHAHA - just rubbish and YOU KNOW IT. Rewrite history all you want - it happened. Ordinary people were complicit and many did identify as socialists - do not try to paint over this.
I suspect this is fundamentally a case of semantic ambiguity, polysemy or lexical ambiguity. I do not speak the languages of the time, critics would have to be very careful in the translation, so as such historians might revert to descriptions of behaviour over issuing a label.

It may be very wrong to assume that the meaning of the words remains consistent across all contexts and era's, a common topic of debate in philosophical circles. If I called you a gay chap in the 1930s it means something very different to that same label now! If I called you a nationalist in Appalachia, it means something very different to the same label in Tibet!

Also, should we put much weight on any self-designation, especially given such designations might be relative to other phenomenon current at the time?
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #110 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
The extremes behave the same.
Yes this is true, but you'll find the idea that polar opposites can behave similarly and as badly as each other has a lot of opposition in mainstream culture.

Also, just because they behave in a similar fashion doesn't mean that the underlying beliefs are the same, but I suppose that can be very deeply debated.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #111 –
I read today that Scomo is watching over the ICAC and going into bat for Burythemall in parliament. 

People are complaining about Dan's Pandemic Bill, it sounds like the NSW version is even worse and probably bans abortion as part of the deal!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #112 –
Quote from: spf – on
HAHAHAHAHA - just rubbish and YOU KNOW IT. Rewrite history all you want - it happened. Ordinary people were complicit and many did identify as socialists - do not try to paint over this.
Your tactic of boldly declaring that anyone who disagrees with you really knows that you are right is pretty weak. Try to read a bit of history. You'll find the Social Democratic Party stood against Hitler while just about every other party, including the Communist Party, played footsie with Hitler at various stages. The conservative parties thought they could control and use him. The Communists, as ordered by Moscow, refused to work with the Social Democratic Party because they wanted to destroy any moderate workers' party. The Centre Party was more interested in protecting religious freedom. The SPD was the only party that voted against the Enabling Act which gave the Nazis control of the government. The SPD was then banned and many of its members were jailed, sent to concentration camps, or went into exile. Trade Unions were also abolished and collective bargaining was banned.

The Social Democrats were more like the ALP than a textbook socialist party: they were more of a trade union party. It was down to around 20% of the vote when it was banned. It may well be that many blue collar workers were attracted to Hitler in the same way that many became Trump voters in 2016 & 2020, but that's the thing about individual voting rather than bloc voting. Individuals may have a range of priorities which mean they become swing voters. But whether those who traditionally would have supported the SPD would have identified as socialists after they started supporting Hitler is highly questionable just as it's highly unlikely any blue collar workers who switched their support to Trump would have done so while regarding themselves as socialists (other than Bernie Bros who may have wanted to punish the Democratic Party for preferring Hillary as the Presidential Candidate).

One of the problems is that socialism is hard to pin down in any event. Does it involve the government owning all the means of production? Or does it involve the government owning some key businesses in order to exert influence over private businesses, such as when Telstra and the Commonwealth Bank were owned by the Government. Or does it involve the government regulating businesses to limit the excesses of rampant capitalism? Or does it merely involve seeking to redistribute wealth to some extent to ensure fairness to the poor and passing legislation to ensure social justice? Or does it just mean being a bit more progressive than the centrists in a left-wing party? The term is basically nebulous as is apparent from the attempts conservative politicians make to paint every opponent as a socialist.  

Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #113 –
My favourite sign being wielded at the protests reads, "This is insanity".  Nailed an own goal  :)
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball

Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #114 –
Quote from: LP – on
Yes this is true, but you'll find the idea that polar opposites can behave similarly and as badly as each other has a lot of opposition in mainstream culture.

Also, just because they behave in a similar fashion doesn't mean that the underlying beliefs are the same, but I suppose that can be very deeply debated.

Both extremes have a deep seeded belief that they are correct, know better, and are doing what they believe are in societies best interests using the same autocratic means.

The intention is quite irrelevant when you see it like that.  There are plenty of examples of socialism gone bad.

Star wars taught me a lot about this.  Balance in the force is required.  Too much of one just leads to a different set of people being discriminated against.

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #115 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Both extremes have a deep seeded belief that they are correct, know better, and are doing what they believe are in societies best interests using the same autocratic means.

The intention is quite irrelevant when you see it like that.  There are plenty of examples of socialism gone bad.

Star wars taught me a lot about this.  Balance in the force is required.  Too much of one just leads to a different set of people being discriminated against.



Extremists in any endeavour or field are often a threat to society's wellbeing.  I think that you may be overly generous in stating that political extremists' actions are motivated by society's best interests.  I reckon self-interest, self-preservation, ideology and cronyism are probably more likely motivators.
"Negative waves are not helpful. Try saying something righteous and hopeful instead." Oddball
 

Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #116 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Extremists in any endeavour or field are often a threat to society's wellbeing.  I think that you may be overly generous in stating that political extremists' actions are motivated by society's best interests.  I reckon self-interest, self-preservation, ideology and cronyism are probably more likely motivators.
I suppose in my lack of empathy I'd bet on some degree of psychopathy or sociopathy!

I get that some individuals may think they have the inside running on the reality, and are warning the world of impending doom, which seems somewhat ironic! Maybe I'm the same, but at least I try to do my best to avoid magical thinking.

Gravy for the mind!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #117 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Extremists in any endeavour or field are often a threat to society's wellbeing.  I think that you may be overly generous in stating that political extremists' actions are motivated by society's best interests.  I reckon self-interest, self-preservation, ideology and cronyism are probably more likely motivators.
No, I said what they think is in societies best interests.

Have another read Djc. 

You'll see my post is well thought out.  Types like lenin, stalin, pol pot, Hitler, mao, kim jong un, all act in their opinion of the greater good.  It doesn't make it right, but its a warning sign when the leader shuts down a building industry for two weeks as punishment to the few who protested against vaccine mandates.

That was in the public good right?  Even those builders who did the right thing, rolled their sleeves up and got jabbed.

You'll quickly see that its a slippery slope to despotism, and autocratic legislation is usually what takes you there (look at the pandemic bill again).
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #118 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
No, I said what they think is in societies best interests.
But even that is debatable @Thryleon‍.

You can look up Kantian versus Care Ethics in the context of Moral Philosophy, the answer is not black and white, not an absolute, and it's not necessarily about right or wrong.

Which is why I always try to look at the frame of reference first, I suppose it's a side-effect of studying relativity years ago!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Pandemic Management bill. Health and well-being Act 2021.

Reply #119 –
What we better look up is the new strain coming out of Africa.  Puts so called climate change into the irrelevance it is as a global necessity.  Well Grandpa Xi?