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Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #30 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
@Lods...
Speculation? Yes and No.

Silence is deafening at times.
Yes, I'm afraid sometimes it is about what wasn't said when the opportunity arose, and that silence was deafening!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #31 –
The club kept everything pretty much in house.
Into that void folks will have inserted their own ideas about how things went down, and Cripps's involvement, and it will be pretty much framed on how you personally thought everything was handled, and whether or not you thought Teague got a fair go.

At the time there was a fair bit of speculation about damage to the club and 'our brand'  that all the shenanigans were causing.
How are we looking 6 months down the track?

All the negative/disruptive/lack of unity stuff came from the media.
The club basically shut up shop after the review... and the decisions that came from that process were carried out.
Sure some folks were probably leaking info about what was going on.
Have a think about where some of that information may have come from.

Of course the real  judgement will now be on who is captain and how we perform under that person and the new coaching structure.

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #32 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
@Lods...
Speculation? Yes and No.

Silence is deafening at times.

We don't know the dynamics between players, nor who Cripps was influencing one way or another.
BUT, as captain, there are certain things you need to do and thats provide unity.
Its a tricky one, i'd much prefer a "The coach has got the full support of the board" type message from Cripps even if it is ultimately hollow. We didn't get that from him....we should've.

The media speculation (yes, speculation) was pretty clear on who was going into bat for the coach, and his name was nowhere to be found. Even once the names are posted, and you're not on it, you should make an effort to stick up for your coach and/or say something positive about him. Barely a peep.

All that being said, it goes back to what i said before. As far as i can tell, the only 'pro' to Cripps being captain is because he is already captain. Not good enough.

Tricky.

You can have wanted change for the good of the group too.

If Teague was failed by cripps, Teague has some blame in that as I dont know of too many coaches who manage to offside their captain.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #33 –
Doc's decision to focus on playing only is a very sensible one. With all the stresses his body and mind have been put through over the past years, simplifying his life is, IMHO, absolutely the right thing to do. Wishing him a complete recovery and 'strutting his stuff' out on the field when ready.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #34 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Tricky.

You can have wanted change for the good of the group too.

If Teague was failed by cripps, Teague has some blame in that as I dont know of too many coaches who manage to offside their captain.

2 initials, 2 people.

MM.

It happens, and all yoo frequently at our club.
The players have driven change (for the worse) at this club for far too long and it needs to change.

Hopefully Voss is the glue that can hold everyone together and get them going in the right direction....or perhaps that is cooks job.

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #35 –
Quote from: Lods – on
At the time there was a fair bit of speculation about damage to the club and 'our brand'  that all the shenanigans were causing.
How are we looking 6 months down the track?

There hasn't been any decisions made at the club to repair or further damage the brand, its just a holding pattern. Wait until the footy starts and we'll see if it's the same old carlton who will be chastised for making a sudden call or not.

That being said, the Liam Jones drama is a cross against the club. Partially for not getting him to wise up and partially for not addressing his replacement...starting from years ago.

Thankfully there has been enough change at the club, including doc stepping down, to warrant a bit of a reset of people's perspectives and expectations. The true test, will come years from now if we sack Voss and are looking for a new coach. Nobody will want to take control over such an unstable, impatient footy club.

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #36 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
2 initials, 2 people.

MM.

It happens, and all yoo frequently at our club.
The players have driven change (for the worse) at this club for far too long and it needs to change.

Hopefully Voss is the glue that can hold everyone together and get them going in the right direction....or perhaps that is cooks job.

Yes but, Teague and malthouse are two different people.

Cripps early work with Teague suggests that he was on board with him to start with.

Kruddler, I've looked through what happened with Teague and arrived at one simple conclusion.  We were better off changing him now than we were persisting with him, and Cripps may also have known that for various reasons hence his silence.

We have a view of the iceberg that is solely above the water from outside the club.  There are many elements below the water we don't see and we just don't know enough about really.   We can try and know but we won't know either way really.

You might be right, you might not be.  I couldn't tell you for sure.  Teague was appointed for much the same reason.  The tail wagged the dog. 


"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #37 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Yes but, Teague and malthouse are two different people.

Cripps early work with Teague suggests that he was on board with him to start with.

Kruddler, I've looked through what happened with Teague and arrived at one simple conclusion.  We were better off changing him now than we were persisting with him, and Cripps may also have known that for various reasons hence his silence.

We have a view of the iceberg that is solely above the water from outside the club.  There are many elements below the water we don't see and we just don't know enough about really.   We can try and know but we won't know either way really.

You might be right, you might not be.  I couldn't tell you for sure.  Teague was appointed for much the same reason.  The tail wagged the dog. 

I see it pretty much the same way Thry.  Teague's appointment was populist and the easy way out.  The club then failed to give him the resources and support that he desperately needed (although I think Teague foolishly maintained that he didn't need support).  I wasn't happy with the way Teague's departure was mishandled but terminating his contract was really the only option if we're to be successful.

As for Cripps, he certainly wasn't silent when it came to Teague, and there were some unfortunate contributions about Cripps from the Teague camp.  For example:

Quote
... Teague’s manager Liam Pickering criticised Carlton skipper Patrick Cripps, saying it had been “a long time” since Cripps delivered both in ball-getting and defensive efforts and that the Blues “need more out of their captain”.

“It has been long time since he actually has delivered in a consistent manner both ways in a game of football, where he gets the ball and he actually puts defensive pressure on [and] chases and tackles,” said Pickering on SEN.

“He is a good enough footballer to adapt to the modern game. He is an inside midfielder, but they ran off him.”
23 Aug 2021

Then there's Crippa's defence of Teague:

Quote
"I think it [the review] will involve everyone, us as leaders as well," Cripps said.

"I think we're all going to get feedback. When you're in places like this it's easy to point to one person, but footy clubs are a collective group. We're all taking responsibility for where we are at the moment.

"It's not just on 'Teaguey', it's on everyone. I want everyone to get feedback from this review and I think everyone will be open to knowing how we get better."
21 Jun 2021

And Teague's crack at Cripps when the latter was subbed out:

Quote
“I don’t know if he [Cripps] hurt it early or he was just choosing to handball,” Teague said following the defeat.

“But a little bit of that hurt us around the contest at times. That is something from a leadership point of view and a group point of view we have got to get better at.”
23 Aug 2021

And Crippa's response:

Quote
“They asked me to play,” Cripps told Fox Sports News, who finished with 17 handballs and no kicks during the defeat.

“I just tweaked my ankle early in the game. I always love playing footy and the body didn’t hold up in the last round.

“I’m just excited to get away in the off-season and freshen up and have a really big pre-season and together with Teague have a big year next year.”

AND

“Me and Teague just had our end of season interview,” Cripps said.

“We have a great working relationship. All year we communicated all the time. He’s a great bloke, we have great respect for each other.”
24 Aug 21

Crippa isn't mentioned among the players who allegedly called for Teague to be retained but, at least some reporters concede that they didn't know his private position regarding Teague.  I suspect that Cripps knows enough about footy to realise that another season with Teague as coach would have meant another season in the doldrums.  Giving that feedback to the review would, in my opinion, be entirely appropriate for the skipper and any senior player.  Loyalty is an important attribute but loyalty to the club, the playing group and the supporters is more important than loyalty to an individual who was holding the club back.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #38 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Crippa isn't mentioned among the players who allegedly called for Teague to be retained but, at least some reporters concede that they didn't know his private position regarding Teague.
@DJC For all Cripps said there was a door stop interview that was the tell.

Cripps was asked a question that caught him off guard and he went silent, which was all he didn't need to say and pretty much ended the speculation. I suspect this might also be the moment @kruddler has in mind

If I recall it was just a day or so before Pickering lost the plot, but I might have the dates wrong, if I find a copy I will post a link.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #39 –
Quote from: LP – on
@DJC For all Cripps said there was a door stop interview that was the tell.

Cripps was asked a question that caught him off guard and he went silent, which was all he didn't need to say and pretty much ended the speculation. I suspect this might also be the moment @kruddler has in mind

If I recall if was just a day or so before Pickering lost the plot, but I might have the dates wrong, if I find a copy I will post a link.

I think that is the chain of events; Cripps didn't publicly support Teague when questioned but came out a  couple of days later (24 Aug) to support Teague.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!
 

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #40 –
The link and context would be interesting.

I'm  guessing that that the players would have been told to say nothing once the review started.
If we remember back one of the big criticisms was that the club was giving nothing away.
If Cripps was ambushed in a door stop the appropriate response in that case would have been to talk in general terms...if at all.

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #41 –
I wonder if the 'rear view mirror' on the TT / Crippa relationship isn't growing too big. I can't see what useful purpose is served by speculating on Crippa's relationship with The TT. To moi what is most important is how Crippa is training, how he is responding to leadership, being the lone skipper (at this stage) and his relationship with Vossy/team mates and coaches / club in general. A massive opportunity is in front of him to grow as a leader; to grow as a person; to grow as a player. I prefer to believe he will rise to the challenge and leave the past where it belongs (and learn from it, but not dwell/reflect on it too much).
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #42 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
I wonder if the 'rear view mirror' on the TT / Crippa relationship isn't growing too big. I can't see what useful purpose is served by speculating on Crippa's relationship with The TT. To moi what is most important is how Crippa is training, how he is responding to leadership, being the lone skipper (at this stage) and his relationship with Vossy/team mates and coaches / club in general. A massive opportunity is in front of him to grow as a leader; to grow as a person; to grow as a player. I prefer to believe he will rise to the challenge and leave the past where it belongs (and learn from it, but not dwell/reflect on it too much).

Personally, my issues with Cripps as captain extend far further than his relationship (or lack of) with Teague.
IMO, that is simply another reason its best we go in a new direction with our captaincy.

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #43 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Personally, my issues with Cripps as captain extend far further than his relationship (or lack of) with Teague.
IMO, that is simply another reason its best we go in a new direction with our captaincy.
Just to recap...apart from anything around the review and Teague, where are the concerns...inconsistent performance, lack of defensive effort?

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #44 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Just to recap...apart from anything around the review and Teague, where are the concerns...inconsistent performance, lack of defensive effort?
All of the above has been visible at stages.

It's a bit of a tell when our new recruit is giving some of the big names and old heads a rocket on the field, not mentioning any names!

Can a leader ever be perceived to be less than 100% committed, and still lead?

Of course, as fans we do not know the fitness/injury status, but the coaches, team-mates and managers do! ;)
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"