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Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #45 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Just to recap...apart from anything around the review and Teague, where are the concerns...inconsistent performance, lack of defensive effort?

Short version, look at Kreuzer at the same age. Look at where he ended up.
Great bloke, gave his all, body failed him and modern game meant he could only play one position and ultimately never lived up to the potential he had.

Cripps is similar to that.....with the added issues of playing a bit more selfish and hurting the team more from a lack of defending....and trying to do too much and turning it over.

Further to that, Cripps' value is almost as high as its been now. Trade him and get maximum value. Its all downhill from here, through no fault of his own. The game is changing against him. The 6-6-6 rule means we cannot cover for players who do not defend, or chase.
If Cripps actually plays injured, he is a liability to the side. Not only does he not defend and chase.....but his offensive output suffers to the point where its worth him being out there.
His kicking is very average and if he could fix that, there'd be a spot up forward for him to rest/recover/hide.....but that doesn't help.

He's got one string to his bow....and the bow is becoming old, broken and is being superseded.

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #46 –
Let's perhaps keep our powder dry re Crippa and see how he does this season? Fresh slate an' all. As Principal LODS said, there may in fact be plenty below the visible iceberg we're just unaware of.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #47 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
Let's perhaps keep our powder dry re Crippa and see how he does this season? Fresh slate an' all. As Principal LODS said, there may in fact be plenty below the visible iceberg we're just unaware of.
Yes, I concede that the changes have bought him some time, the debate is mostly over a matter of confidence!

The door is ajar, we can only see a hint of what lays behind, but this season it is flung wide open!
 
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #48 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
Let's perhaps keep our powder dry re Crippa and see how he does this season? Fresh slate an' all. As Principal LODS said, there may in fact be plenty below the visible iceberg we're just unaware of.
I'm not going to be cheering him any less than the other blokes out there.

But realistically, if you take emotion out of the game, what i'm saying makes sense. Its a business decision that is all about making our club better.
 

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #49 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
I'm not going to be cheering him any less than the other blokes out there.

But realistically, if you take emotion out of the game, what i'm saying makes sense. Its a business decision that is all about making our club better.

Agree. And FWIW, not for a second would I doubt your passion for our club and player support. Never. I also agree, that with emotion removed, we supporters have been pretty battered over the past two decades... as has the club. We've much ground to recover.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #50 –
Geez, I think a few are jumping off the bandwagon a little early.....

In the darkest of times, Crippa was our one shining light, and I think we owe him.  He set a very high bar in 2017-19, and true, his last couple of years have not been as outstanding, but he is still easily in our best 22.

With an improved midfield group around him this year (and hopefully a more cohesive game plan) he could well be back to the Crippa of old.

One final point - if moving Crippa on is about making a smart business, decision, then I wouldn't trust the Carlton brains trust to make the right call!

This is now the longest premiership drought in the history of the Carlton Football Club - more evidence of climate change?

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #51 –
Quote from: tonyo – on
Geez, I think a few are jumping off the bandwagon a little early.....

In the darkest of times, Crippa was our one shining light, and I think we owe him.
In reality, we don't owe him anything.

Did we owe Marc Murphy to get him to 300 at the expense of playing others, and potentially wins.
Did we owe Kreuzer....simpson....etc etc

There is always someone we will 'owe'. These players get paid, well, and if there time is up, its up. We don't owe them anymore than that.

What the club does owe....is the fans! We are owed some success much more than any individual player.

Quote from: tonyo – on
One final point - if moving Crippa on is about making a smart business, decision, then I wouldn't trust the Carlton brains trust to make the right call!
I don't trust the club to make the right call either. IMO, they are thinking the same way as you, that we 'owe' the players.

No, the club owes the fans some success.
No one player is above the club.
No one player is owed anything more than the fans.

The club owes the fans some hard calls, and stop taking the easy options.

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #52 –
I can see the arguments for trading a player of Cripps's stature.
To get something worthwhile you have to give something worthwhile.
There has always been that 'return to WA' vibe.
but...

It hasn't happened this year.
If he returns to something appoaching his best we'll do everything we can to hang on to him.
If he has another poor season that trade value will disintegrate.

I reckon one of the things about 'celebrated' mid-fields is that it takes a variety of different players contributing in different ways.
As that combination develops Cripps might not always be the key element but he may fill a role that no one else on our list can provide to the same effectiveness.

He doesn't necessarily have to be the Captain role but he probably will still be a 'leader' for some of the group.

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #53 –
Are we seriously talking about cripps like he's marc Murphy?

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #54 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Are we seriously talking about cripps like he's marc Murphy?



At 24yo Marc Murphy was named AFLCA MVP, was in the AA team, beat out Judd for the CFC B+F and was regarded as one of the best players in the league.
At 24yo Cripps was named AFLPA MVP, was in the AA team (2nd time), won his 3rd B+F and was regarded as one of the best players in the league.

For the final 9 years of his career, Marc Murphy won 1 B+F. No more AA's or other awards.
For the last 2 years of his career so far, Cripps has won.....nothing.

Murphy peaked, played some good enough footy, but was never the same standard after 24.
Cripps has peaked, played some very average footy since and may not reach the same standard as he had previously.

So yeah, same same? Prove me wrong.

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #55 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
At 24yo Marc Murphy was named AFLCA MVP, was in the AA team, beat out Judd for the CFC B+F and was regarded as one of the best players in the league.
At 24yo Cripps was named AFLPA MVP, was in the AA team (2nd time), won his 3rd B+F and was regarded as one of the best players in the league.

For the final 9 years of his career, Marc Murphy won 1 B+F. No more AA's or other awards.
For the last 2 years of his career so far, Cripps has won.....nothing.

Murphy peaked, played some good enough footy, but was never the same standard after 24.
Cripps has peaked, played some very average footy since and may not reach the same standard as he had previously.

So yeah, same same? Prove me wrong.


I think you'll find Murphy's best years coincided with the time he was playing in the midfield alongside Judd, Gibbs, Mitch Robinson, Carrazzo, just to name a few.   In those days, he rarely got tagged, and there was a bit of muscle around him.

As soon as those guys retired or departed, he became a target and his game was never as potent again.

Cripps has spent most of the last 5 seasons with at least one, sometime 2 or 3 hanging off him for most of the game.

I honestly don't think Cripps and Murphy should be compared - totally different types of players.

If Cripps can get even some of the clean air that Smurf enjoyed while the taggers were chasing Judd, I think you might find his form will be heading northwards.  
This is now the longest premiership drought in the history of the Carlton Football Club - more evidence of climate change?

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #56 –
Quote from: tonyo – on
I think you'll find Murphy's best years coincided with the time he was playing in the midfield alongside Judd, Gibbs, Mitch Robinson, Carrazzo, just to name a few.   In those days, he rarely got tagged, and there was a bit of muscle around him.

As soon as those guys retired or departed, he became a target and his game was never as potent again.

Cripps has spent most of the last 5 seasons with at least one, sometime 2 or 3 hanging off him for most of the game.

I honestly don't think Cripps and Murphy should be compared - totally different types of players.

If Cripps can get even some of the clean air that Smurf enjoyed while the taggers were chasing Judd, I think you might find his form will be heading northwards.  
Obviously there are differences and I'm not into arguing the minutia of it.

Point remains at the height of their game at the same time, injuries and form hindered prior from there.

Is not unreasonable to think the best may be behind cripps. I'm just trying to stay ahead of the curve. Sell high! Don't wait until his sticks are worthless

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #57 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Point remains at the height of their game at the same time, injuries and form hindered prior from there.
sMurph was struck down in his prime, 1st by injury then extended pain under Mick Malthouse.

I think Cripps is young enough to live through that and recover, his biggest problem is going to be the rule changes as I think his game style is almost the worst type for being negatively impacted by the recent rule changes as they were as as they will be!

Close followers of players like Cripps and Fyfe could be forgiven for thinking the recent rule revisions are designed to end their career!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #58 –
Quote from: LP – on
sMurph was struck down in his prime, 1st by injury then extended pain under Mick Malthouse.

I think Cripps is young enough to live through that and recover, his biggest problem is going to be the rule changes as I think his game style is almost the worst type for being negatively impacted by the recent rule changes as they were as as they will be!

Close followers of players like Cripps and Fyfe could be forgiven for thinking the recent rule revisions are designed to end their career!

Cripps has copped more injuries than Murph at the same age. He is bigger and more robust, which make actually work against him in the long term as carrying that weight around shortens your career. All the bloke who play 300-350-400+ are stick figures.
Cripps is 27 next month.
If we try and trade him at the end of the year, he will be 28 for his new team. Any older than that and you'll find most teams won't bother and/or won't give us an offer thats worth it.
We need to cash in before he gets 'too old'

Re: Docherty standing down

Reply #59 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
We need to cash in before he gets 'too old'
I agree if that is our intent, but I'm also happy for him to stay as well.

I suppose I'm happy to wait and see what Cripps can do under Voss.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"