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Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #165 –
i seriously always have to wonder how much knowledge people have of Russia and it's history. if anyone is asking why Russian media and politicians are less trustworthy than western media and politicians, the debate might as well end there, but anyway.... Political assassinations are and always have been a part of the Russian way of doing things, before the death penalty was abolished you only needed to lock someone up, interrogate them and force them to either confess and save their family (which often during the USSR was a lie as the family was usually purged later) or hold out and know you family would suffer the same fate.
Now with no death penalty it is still state sanctioned killings but in a different manner.

Russia has always used lying as an official means of bending the public will, there was a small period from Glasnost where there was more openness, not the same level of openness as you have in the west, where opposition media can openly criticize you and bust open your lies, but a degree... even then it was fraught with danger, especially once Putin come into power. Take a look at this list and tell me of another place on the planet where so many journalists were killed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

Russia sees it's strength lies in controlling the narrative and not allowing an alternative version. It is why Russians are hesitant (even in personal calls online) to be critical of anything the government says or does. Nobody would suggest the western media is the beacon of truth, nor their governments, but it is incredibly more transparent than Russia.

The sad part is some of this propaganda even works on those who should know better. I had an argument with a Russian (who still lives in Russia) after they told me that there are hardly any Ukrainians left fighting for Ukraine and 90% of the fighters know are foreigners. Now this lie has been pushed over and over again on Russia One, especially by the likes of Vladimir Solovyov, but i never thought a sensible person could believe this... It just shows that pushing a lie over and over and over again works and it is the Russian lesson they learned directly from Goebbels.

A even earlier example about how little the truth matters can be seen below

Quote from: Martin Latsis - Red Terror Newspaper
We are not waging war against individual persons. We are exterminating the bourgeoisie as a class. During the investigation, do not look for evidence that the accused acted in deed or word against Soviet power. The first questions that you ought to put are: To what class does he belong? What is his origin? What is his education or profession? And it is these questions that ought to determine the fate of the accused. In this lies the significance and essence of the Red Terror

Russia doesn't care about truth, it cares about obedience.

As for whether Russia is the "baddie" in the war in Ukraine.. Honestly you don't need to look at all at the media for this. It is obvious to anyone with a clear conscious and any knowledge of history as to what is right and what is wrong, as well as for the reasons that Russia invaded..

If you are sucked in by the claim about NATO expansion being the reason, then why isn't there an attack on Finland going on right now?
if you are sucked in by Russia believing in an areas right to self determination, the same claim it used to invade Georgia over South Ossetia and Abkhazia, then where are the right of the Mari El people? The rights of the Dagestani and Chechnyan people to self determination? It doesn't exist because it isn't real. Russia does not care one iota about it's people.

If you wanted to get an idea about real reasons you have to consider the history of Russian leaders and how Putin styles himself as a Tsar, including his own references to Russia's arguably greatest Tsar Peter I. The other thing is understanding that Ukraine is as big of a kleptocracy as Russia is and any threats to break up this kleptocracy was always going to be met by a lot of anger inside the circle of Russia's biggest oligarchs. If Ukraine was to become part of the EU, it has to make sweeping reforms, this is likely to see very powerful Russian (and Ukrainian) men lose a lot of power and wealth which Ukraine generates. This outcome was totally unacceptable to a lot of people.

If all of this is legitimate, then why was it the Russian Army and Wagner that ran the armed insurrections in the east (without wearing Russian uniforms) and why did they do the same in Crimea, originally arriving overnight in their "little green men" uniforms?

People in their desire to want to prove the west is full of lies, try and back up the likes of Russia as being "no worse" and it is just patently untrue. I happen to love the country of Russia, like a lot of Eastern Europe, it has a very fascinating history, it also has a beautiful (though very difficult) language and some of the richest literature in the world, but that doesn't change that the government is incredibly corrupt and that this corruption is absolutely clear at all levels of government and within the judicial system also, and that the western sphere doesn't come remotely close to matching that
Goals for 2017
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Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #166 –
Just a quick video on the role propaganda plays within the Russian society i will share a video and also a channel.

The first video is from a town near Smolensk and it is inside a Kindergarten. It is specifically the 90 second song i am showing, which really appears to me as though it is from a dystopian world. The song starts at the 35 second mark of the video

https://youtu.be/48DaLYiO-yk?si=gwi9BIWz_WrFYVEC&t=35

I wanted to get a gauge if this is considered "normal" inside Russia, so i asked 3 friends (2 still in Russia and one who left last year) whether this "normal".

The responses from all 3 indicated everything is normal. i should point out though that this is a celebration day (like ANZAC day) which is basically "Defender of the Fatherland Day". I pointed out it is still quite dystopian indoctrination to me, but they disagreed and thought it was just pride in their country.


The next is just one of the media watch sites i look at for some of the recent propaganda.

Russian Media Watch

There are many other options, but you want to ensure you are getting good translations as well. This just gives an idea of what is pushed consistently to the home audience on the most famous and popular channels inside Russia.

All of this is just again to give an insight into the values of Russian people and the environment they are surrounded by. This isn't me disparaging Russian people, in fact many are very kind and warm people, but it is quite fair to say "Russian traditional values" are very different to ours and this is very important in understanding the reasons Russians react to certain news and events.
Goals for 2017
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Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

 

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #167 –
Is putin still sick and dying?

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #168 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Is putin still sick and dying?



This is funny, i spoke about that with a friend a long time ago and we discussed how it served Russia's interest for the west to think he was so ill that they could outlast him.. In Russia there is absolutely NOTHING on their televisions ever suggesting he has any health issues and i think personally it was a lot of wishful thinking by the west and disinformation.

I believe the Russian's very much wanted the outside world to believe he was sick and the West bought it hook, line and sinker.. we will see of course, but that has been my thoughts on it
Goals for 2017
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Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #169 –
Quote from: mateinone – on
This is funny, i spoke about that with a friend a long time ago and we discussed how it served Russia's interest for the west to think he was so ill that they could outlast him.. In Russia there is absolutely NOTHING on their televisions ever suggesting he has any health issues and i think personally it was a lot of wishful thinking by the west and disinformation.

I believe the Russian's very much wanted the outside world to believe he was sick and the West bought it hook, line and sinker.. we will see of course, but that has been my thoughts on it

Thats one way to view it.

Personally it was just the same propaganda in reverse, but I think it's more about morale at the front lines than anything else.

The funny thing about these things is that they could be true.

If you read the news on the Microsoft pages every day, the Ukraine troops are inflicting heavy losses on the Russians almost daily, and the the Russian troops are bumbling fools who are poorly coordinated and don't want to be there. 

"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #170 –
I think both sides are suffering heavy losses daily, but yes i do believe that morale is lower on the Russian side. The reason isn't that surprising when you mobilize people against their will. They are very patriotic and there are a lot that actively would join themselves, but the number of mobilized is quite high now. As for whether Russians are bumbling fools.. no i don't think this is true, but they are using archaic methods and they have comfortably been outperformed by Ukraine based on the comparative numbers and equipment of the 2 sides.

There is propaganda in the west it is clear, but as i said in an earlier post, it is not comparative to the propaganda within Russia, which always happens when there is only one story told and publicly disagreeing with that narrative can land you a lengthy jail term.
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #171 –
I want to be clear Mio.

I dont want to create an equivalence between propaganda.

All I'm saying is that when propaganda begins, believe nothing you've heard and half of what you see.

Generally speaking im not invested either way, but am keen to learn about the outcome and motivation.  My only concern is whether or not the conflict escalates.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #174 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Isn’t that undead?

An intereresting question.

I use as my source on all things Vampiric... Kim Marie Ostrowski- Author of the Vampire 'Bible'

Kim Marie writes..
Quote
Are vampires dead or alive?
Considering they are referred to in 2 ways.

as the undead
as the Living Dead
and that most of the time in the mythology, a person usually has to die to become one.

usually the person is either drained and given the blood of the vampire, or died with Vampire blood in them. (there are also the odd stories where they just need to be bitten which for me is just up in the air of which)

so therefore they are dead, but a ‘living’ corpse.

(unlike a Zombie which is all decaying or rotting dead but somehow reanimated for some reason but still stays dead, just with the most basic instinct, to EAT.)

BTW has anyone else noticed the uncanny resemblance between Putin and the Mona Lisa....tell me the guy hasn't been around for centuries.

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #175 –
Quote from: Lods – on
BTW has anyone else noticed the uncanny resemblance between Putin and the Mona Lisa....tell me the guy hasn't been around for centuries.

Perhaps all the above.

He is dead, he's not a vampire, he doesn't age because its not him. Its a double...and another double....

Supposedly Saddam Hussein had 5 or 6 doubles that used to get around.
Who knows anymore.

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #176 –
Quote from: Lods – on
BTW has anyone else noticed the uncanny resemblance between Putin and the Mona Lisa....tell me the guy hasn't been around for centuries.

if you want further proof you need to look at the paintings of Jan van Eyck  !!!
Do a google search on Jan van Eyck and Putin, this is seriously uncanny!!
Goals for 2017
=============
Play the most anti-social football in the AFL

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #177 –
Quote from: mateinone – on
if you want further proof you need to look at the paintings of Jan van Eyck  !!!
Do a google search on Jan van Eyck and Putin, this is seriously uncanny!!

And that led to the fake news story of the National Gallery removing a van Eyck portrait because it resembled Putin  ::)
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #178 –
Russians are going to become a colony of China, they just dont it....China sign off on most of Putins activities and the interesting aspect now is the proposed deals between Putin and Nth Korea. Put basically the Nth Korean's are starving and need food and oil plus international currency and Putin is running out of weaponry, spares and artillery shells, rockets etc to continue with his barrage into Ukraine.
Nth Korea have the same old old Russian weaponry and churn out a lot of munitions via their sweatshop factories and would be able to supply Putin and keep the war going in return for Food, Oil and money which Russia have plenty of.
China would have to sign off on such a deal given both countries are beholding to them and they dont do anything without weighing up the pros and cons for their political aspirations. Russia have traditionally had no time for Nth Korea but in recent times have been forced into following what China's foreign policy dictates.
A well fed Nth Korea wouldnt be affected so much by sanctions anymore that have helped put the brakes on and a nutter like KimJ might be tempted to try his luck by obtaining better long range ICBMs and nuke subs.
Id be stopping that little liaison developing and involving the Chinese who I am sure would have the same concerns about KimJ straying from their game plan and doing his own thing fuelled by a desperate Putin.

Re: Russian Ukraine War

Reply #179 –
I was just listening to a security expert / political strategist who was adamant Russia is behind this latest breakout of fighting in Israel. The hypothesis seems to be rather than take the expensive options to scale up fighting on that front, they have chosen to weaken Ukraine by acting to distract / divide Allied support by given the Allies another war to fight.

He suspects there could be further outbreaks of regional fighting to come, and he warned of terrorist attacks on domestic soil, or potentially false flag operations, financed / enabled by Russia to weaken and distract support for Ukraine. Ukraine won't get resources from Allies if the Allies are given issues to deal with closer to home.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"