Carlton Supporters Club

Tom's time on the ground doesn't fluctuate that much, regardless of whether he's rucking solo or in tandem with Pitto, and it generally hovers between 78-80%.  His lowest was 68% against the Swans when Pitto had 78%.  He had 80% TOG against the Giants in round 6 and Pitto had 68%.  Pitto's time on the ground is less and fluctuates quite a bit; 50-78%.

It's not so much time on the ground that matters when playing two ruckmen, it's the impact they have when "resting".  When Tom is is playing as a tall forward, he gets up the ground like Harry does, impacts contests and takes some ruck contests, leaving Pitto behind the ball.  When Pitto is "resting", he's more likely to be on the pine because he isn't able to impact contests to the same extent as Tom.

The crux of the two rucks scenario is having two ruckmen who are complementary and can have an impact when not rucking.  We've had a couple of games this season where our two rucks worked very well and a couple where one or the other didn't do much.  Melbourne couldn't get it to work when they had arguably the two best ruckmen in the competition in their 22 but they weren't all that complementary.  Our two are very much a work in progress and it's getting more impact from Pitto when he's not in ruck contests that needs more work.

That's not how it works now, that claim is used by the anti-ruck duo brigade to cast doubt.

The reality is TDK is generally in a complex rotation with Charlie and Harry, but it's no more complex than the D50 or Midfield rotations. Pitto shares bench time mostly from Harry, Charlie, TDK bench time. Technically it won't matter who we have as the 3rd tall in that rotation, the impact on the bench is the same, whether it's a ruck or another KPP like SoJ, Young or Durdin. What changes from the choice of who is in the squad is how they can be used on the field and who they can substitute for in a crisis!

It quite foolish to think you can have an "All In" approach and leave one significant segment of the zones without a viable back plan. For me it's not viable for Harry to be our ruck backup plan, in fact it's disastrous to withdraw Harry from F50 if our solo ruck goes down, the flow on impact to Charlie and the F50 as well as the diminished ruck / midfield presence is almost impossible to overcome against a well organised opponent. Our F50 strength is the Twin Towers, when we go solo ruck, even without unexpected injuries, we actively degrade one of our key strengths.

Then you have the absurdity of the claim that when we solo ruck a Mid like Cripps get extra bench time, it's both worthless and meaningless claim. In reality when we solo ruck it's Cripps who ends up doing some of the part-time ruck role, if anything his load goes up when we solo ruck, he's not fresher at all!

I used to be pro 2 rucks but have changed camps.

I would play TDK alone unless one of Charlie or Harry are missing.

The camp seems to be getting bigger.

That's not how it works now, that claim is used by the anti-ruck duo brigade to cast doubt.

The reality is TDK is generally in a complex rotation with Charlie and Harry, but it's no more complex than the D50 or Midfield rotations. Pitto shares bench time mostly from Harry, Charlie, TDK bench time. Technically it won't matter who we have as the 3rd tall in that rotation, the impact on the bench is the same, whether it's a ruck or another KPP like SoJ, Young or Durdin. What changes from the choice of who is in the squad is how they can be used on the field and who they can substitute for in a crisis!

It quite foolish to think you can have an "All In" approach and leave one significant segment of the zones without a viable back plan. For me it's not viable for Harry to be our ruck backup plan, in fact it's disastrous to withdraw Harry from F50 if our solo ruck goes down, the flow on impact to Charlie and the F50 as well as the diminished ruck / midfield presence is almost impossible to overcome against a well organised opponent. Our F50 strength is the Twin Towers, when we go solo ruck, even without unexpected injuries, we actively degrade one of our key strengths.

Then you have the absurdity of the claim that when we solo ruck a Mid like Cripps get extra bench time, it's both worthless and meaningless claim. In reality when we solo ruck it's Cripps who ends up doing some of the part-time ruck role, if anything his load goes up when we solo ruck, he's not fresher at all!

Are you arguing with me or trying to summarise everything i've been saying over the years?

I've done analysis on TOG% for both before.

Short version equates to basically this.
In a game where you have 2 genuine rucks, a ruck is taking up a spot on the bench for a full quarter MORE than if you have 1 ruck.
So that means there is 1/4 worth of time LESS rotation for others to share. (30 minutes more time others play apread across them).

When you go one step further and realise that an extra small would take place of the ruck on top of that (in the 1 ruck model) you basically get a whole extra player/rotation to add to that, so basically 75% game time from the extra mid.

So you have an extra mid for the whole game more rotation wise
vs
A genuine ruck over a backup ruck for 25% of the game and largely hiding them for the other 75% or hoping they can fit in.

....and people also try and debate how pointless the ruck stats are.....but still want the 2nd ruck over an additional mid.

......................................... 

There’s no hard and fast rules about one or two rucks.  It depends on the opposition, whether the rucks can do more than take part in ruck contests, game plans, and the other players in the 22.........................................

I’m not arguing, just providing some data … but you’re wrong about two rucks meaning more time on the pine.  Tom and Pitto’s TOG shows that. 

There’s no hard and fast rules about one or two rucks.  It depends on the opposition, whether the rucks can do more than take part in ruck contests, game plans, and the other players in the 22.

I would definitely play Tom and Pitto against Xerri and Teakle.

Not just rucks, but any selection decision for game day has to be horses for courses. Whatever resources are at the club's disposal have to be marshaled as and when required. Anything else is formulaic, dogmatic thinking.

Tom and Pittos TOG shows exactly that.

I've shown my workings on this previously but simplisticly....

75% TOG when 1 ruck. - 25% game time on bench
75% and 75% TOG when 2 rucks. - 25% + 25% game time on bench = 50%
Thats an extra 25% of the game that a ruck is on the bench, or a full quarter EXTRA a ruck holds up a bench spot.

Reality is actually more the other way, with 1 ruck going at 80% and 2 rucks 75+70%.....depending on which years you want to use for your data.

Not just rucks, but any selection decision for game day has to be horses for courses. Whatever resources are at the club's disposal have to be marshaled as and when required. Anything else is formulaic, dogmatic thinking.

This article is from 3 months ago. Hoyne looks at the ruck question through the lens of turnover v contest.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2024/04/16/how-carltons-turnover-game-directly-links-to-their-ruck-selection-calls/

“I want to more talk about the structure of the team on the weekend and moving forward.

“It surprised me to see Marc Pittonet back in the team and playing the two rucks together.

“If you look at every team heading into the year, there was an area of improvement for every team in 2024 and clearly that was the turnover game for Carlton.

“That needed to get better for them to compete – and across the first four weeks of the year, they’re the best turnover team in the competition. It’s been fantastic and through forward-half pressure.

“Then Pittonet comes back into the team and for the first time for the year they lose the turnover game, but their stoppage game comes back – and they dominate stoppage and score 14 times, but they lose the most important aspect of the game.

“So, over the last couple of years, when it’s just been De Koning, Carlton has won the turnover game 60 per cent of the time. They win it by seven points per game. That profile is going to take you a long way.

“When they play both rucks, they’ve won the turnover game 6 of 14 times and that’s not going to take you to a finals campaign.

“When it’s just Pittonet alone, they’ve won 1 of 5 in the turnover game.

“The previous three weeks they were +98 in the turnover game. They lose it for the first time.