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LA Fires

I thought it was worth starting a thread.

Interesting that many LA based personalities, having spent many years profiting off the back of woke agendas, are now turning to the dark side pushing Trump crap.

Trump is busy parroting fantasies, opinions and memes that as far as I can tell that come straight out of Hollywood, not surprising given he claims he gets most of his information from Fox, like a representation of corruption as the cause of LA's water issues as depicted in the 2016 series Goliath.

The hard truth is that as wild fires become too big, the front is being fought over an area too large for the infrastructure to deal with, water pressure drops. It's why our local CFA always advise people living in high risk BAL 40 areas to have their own water resource and equipment to use if they intend to stay and fight the fires, otherwise get out because the first thing that happens is the water pressure from your garden hose evaporates! Even so if we had that combination of fire and wind that LA has experienced, it's unlikely they fire authorities or any individual could do a single thing to prevent the devastation. There are suburban regions divided with with concrete or bitumen multi-lane highways and roads, areas equivalent to St Kilda or Albert Park, that are being levelled right to the waters edge.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: LA Fires

Reply #1 –
Interesting listening to a couple of expats who were evacuated and lost everything.  They both lived in areas with lots of remnant vegetation, bears wandering the streets, etc.

My fire role was mainly planning and administrative and I only ever completed Basic Wildfire Awareness.  However, that course made it abundantly clear that firefighters attempt to control a fire by removing fuel from its likely path.  This is done by back burning (when safe to do so) and using bulldozers to expose bare mineral earth.  Waterbombers, fire retardants, tankers, etc don’t put fires out, but may prevent the loss of assets.  Big fires basically burn themselves out when there’s no fuel left.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: LA Fires

Reply #2 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Interesting listening to a couple of expats who were evacuated and lost everything.  They both lived in areas with lots of remnant vegetation, bears wandering the streets, etc.

My fire role was mainly planning and administrative and I only ever completed Basic Wildfire Awareness.  However, that course made it abundantly clear that firefighters attempt to control a fire by removing fuel from its likely path.  This is done by back burning (when safe to do so) and using bulldozers to expose bare mineral earth.  Waterbombers, fire retardants, tankers, etc don’t put fires out, but may prevent the loss of assets.  Big fires basically burn themselves out when there’s no fuel left.

I reckon last time there was wild fires that tore through LA they started looking at alternatives.
They seemed to settle on the 'australian model' of backburning. Not sure whats happened since, but i think there were many who didn't understand the logic of 'burning' to 'prevent burning'.

Re: LA Fires

Reply #3 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
I reckon last time there was wild fires that tore through LA they started looking at alternatives.
They seemed to settle on the 'australian model' of backburning. Not sure whats happened since, but i think there were many who didn't understand the logic of 'burning' to 'prevent burning'.

Back burning has been used by US firefighters for quite a while.  The exchange of firefighters is an longstanding practice and we often had American firefighters in the SCC and ICCs during my time and our firefighters work on US fires at high levels. However, back burning is only possible under certain conditions - you don’t want your back burn to become another fire front.  It can’t be done in residential areas like those being incinerated now.

They use prescribed and cultural burns in the USA too.

One problem they have in LA is that a lot of the aerial firefighting assets are here for our “fire season”.

Our SCC is only recently back up and running after a long closure.  Someone flushed a pair of nickers and the subsequent blockage flooded the SCC with effluent.  Apart from the smell and health concerns, it knocked out all of the quite sophisticated electronics.  Our SCC has been operating from temporary premises for quite a while.

It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: LA Fires

Reply #4 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: kruddler – on
I reckon last time there was wild fires that tore through LA they started looking at alternatives.
They seemed to settle on the 'australian model' of backburning. Not sure whats happened since, but i think there were many who didn't understand the logic of 'burning' to 'prevent burning'.

Back burning has been used by US firefighters for quite a while.  The exchange of firefighters is an longstanding practice and we often had American firefighters in the SCC and ICCs during my time and our firefighters work on US fires at high levels. However, back burning is only possible under certain conditions - you don’t want your back burn to become another fire front.  It can’t be done in residential areas like those being incinerated now.

They use prescribed and cultural burns in the USA too.

One problem they have in LA is that a lot of the aerial firefighting assets are here for our “fire season”.

Our SCC is only recently back up and running after a long closure.  Someone flushed a pair of nickers and the subsequent blockage flooded the SCC with effluent.  Apart from the smell and health concerns, it knocked out all of the quite sophisticated electronics.  Our SCC has been operating from temporary premises for quite a while.

I know they do backburning, but i think in LA it was very much frowned upon and the lack of preperation works is the reason why they get to the stage they do.
IIRC the last time it went through there it was because they hadn't been doing the required prep works, before and during...and had that have been done, it would've been much more manageable.

As i said, i cannot recall the specifics, but remember a lot of the commentary about how it could've potentially been avoided, or at least made more manageable with appropriate works.

Re: LA Fires

Reply #5 –
Not sure about mitigation before the event....
But this thing is a bit unprecedented.
These aren't 'bushfires' anymore.
They're 'urban' fires.
It's jumping multi lane highways (more multi than most of ours)
Flames from one house is just being blown into the neighbours and blocks are going up in flames.

Re: LA Fires

Reply #6 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: DJC – on


Back burning has been used by US firefighters for quite a while.  The exchange of firefighters is an longstanding practice and we often had American firefighters in the SCC and ICCs during my time and our firefighters work on US fires at high levels. However, back burning is only possible under certain conditions - you don’t want your back burn to become another fire front.  It can’t be done in residential areas like those being incinerated now.

They use prescribed and cultural burns in the USA too.

One problem they have in LA is that a lot of the aerial firefighting assets are here for our “fire season”.

Our SCC is only recently back up and running after a long closure.  Someone flushed a pair of nickers and the subsequent blockage flooded the SCC with effluent.  Apart from the smell and health concerns, it knocked out all of the quite sophisticated electronics.  Our SCC has been operating from temporary premises for quite a while.

I know they do backburning, but i think in LA it was very much frowned upon and the lack of preperation works is the reason why they get to the stage they do.
IIRC the last time it went through there it was because they hadn't been doing the required prep works, before and during...and had that have been done, it would've been much more manageable.

As i said, i cannot recall the specifics, but remember a lot of the commentary about how it could've potentially been avoided, or at least made more manageable with appropriate works.

Backburning is regularly used by LA firefighters.  Prescribed burning is also an important fire prevention tool used throughout California, including LA.  However, unseasonal weather conditions have restricted the amount of prescribed burns that could be safely carried out over the last several years.

Think of how difficult it would be to control a wildfire in Eltham and the surrounding suburbs.  You can't do fuel reduction burns, cultural burns, back burning or construct control lines.  Then multiply the degree of difficulty by five. And it is the middle of winter there.

Actually, a wildfire in Eltham is one of Emergency Management Victoria's worst nightmares.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: LA Fires

Reply #7 –
I know everyone wants to point the finger but occasionally a unique set of circumstances occur that circumvent any rational approach to managing this which result in what we see.

In every disastrous event related to fire, you see wild winds, high temperatures, and change in wind direction that see the fire effectively destroy any chance of "winning" the battle.

Maybe there was something not done but we are in winter for them so you can't even say, it was negligence as ordinarily you'll do fire prep management between now and spring.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: LA Fires

Reply #8 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
I know they do backburning, but i think in LA it was very much frowned upon and the lack of preparation works is the reason why they get to the stage they do.
Yes, and I fear it's heading that way here as well.

I have more than one regional relative that will complain to me that fires are caused by DSE burn-offs, they have been indoctrinated by the a fairly radical segment of the environmentalist lobby. In my own area the fuel load is higher than ever because we are no longer allowed to conduct burn-offs on our own smaller property, it was in the past permitted with CFA oversight, but under environmentalist pressure they changed the minimum property size and thousands of properties on the fringe of national parks or in green wedge areas no longer qualify.

But the fires we see now are not the natural events that some environmentalists like to claim, and as you can see from LA when wildfires rage on excess fuel load nothing its left but ashes, and even stuff that normally isn't combusted is destroyed. Not even ground dwellers critters survive because even if they escape the flames they end up starving, not even fish are safe as they perish in waterways due to ash load and run-off which rips oxygen out of the water while adding toxins.

Fire management practises should be restored, under CFA guidance and in conjunction with the traditional occupants, or large swathes of our suburban areas are going to suffer the same fate as LA. it's only a matter of time under current policy before this occurs, not if just when!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: LA Fires

Reply #9 –
Quote from: LP – on
Quote from: kruddler – on
I know they do backburning, but i think in LA it was very much frowned upon and the lack of preparation works is the reason why they get to the stage they do.
Yes, and I fear it's heading that way here as well.

I have more than one regional relative that will complain to me that fires are caused by DSE burn-offs, they have been indoctrinated by the a fairly radical segment of the environmentalist lobby. In my own area the fuel load is higher than ever because we are no longer allowed to conduct burn-offs on our own smaller property, it was in the past permitted with CFA oversight, but under environmentalist pressure they changed the minimum property size and thousands of properties on the fringe of national parks or in green wedge areas no longer qualify.

But the fires we see now are not the natural events that some environmentalists like to claim, and as you can see from LA when wildfires rage on excess fuel load nothing its left but ashes, and even stuff that normally isn't combusted is destroyed. Not even ground dwellers critters survive because even if they escape the flames they end up starving, not even fish are safe as they perish in waterways due to ash load and run-off which rips oxygen out of the water while adding toxins.

Fire management practises should be restored, under CFA guidance and in conjunction with the traditional occupants, or large swathes of our suburban areas are going to suffer the same fate as LA. it's only a matter of time under current policy before this occurs, not if just when!

Back burning is not fuel reduction burning.  One is fire fighting, the other is ostensibly fire prevention. 

I can and do conduct burn offs on my small property, as do the owners of the neighbouring broadacre farms.  I just have to apply for a permit (that lasts from autumn to late spring), monitor the weather conditions and notify the CFA.

However, there is a growing body of evidence that prescribed or hazard-reduction burning doesn't really help and is actually making things worse.  According to fire behaviour scientist Philip Zylstra, “We’ve been undermining the natural processes that made forest resistant to fire,  We’ve kind of been breaking the system.”

Zylstra presented evidence to the 2020 NSW Bushfire inquiry that showed that despite more prescribed burning during the previous decade in NSW national parks than in any decade before, and more than double the rate of burning in the preceding 10 years, NSW experienced its most extreme fire season ever. 

The Rural Fire Service submission to the inquiry stated, “Our members have referred to numerous instances of fires burning, at a pace that made their control impossible, through areas that had been burnt no less than 12 months prior.  This was common both in areas that had been treated by hazard reduction burns and also those burnt by bushfires during the previous season.”

Once again, our attempts to mitigate natural disasters appear to have produced counter-intuitive outcomes.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: LA Fires

Reply #10 –
Not sure how the insurance companies are going to meet their obligations.
Multi-million dollar properties going up in flames.
There was probably a reluctance to cover fires by some of these companies anyway.

End result...
Companies will collapse.
People won't get their payouts.
Rebuilding will be difficult, if not impossible.

There may be some government assistance....but it's doubtful it will cover costs.

Re: LA Fires

Reply #11 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Not sure how the insurance companies are going to meet their obligations.
Multi-million dollar properties going up in flames.
There was probably a reluctance to cover fires by some of these companies anyway.

End result...
Companies will collapse.
People won't get their payouts.
Rebuilding will be difficult, if not impossible.

There may be some government assistance....but it's doubtful it will cover costs.

Here is one for ya....
https://www.newsweek.com/california-insurer-canceled-policies-months-before-los-angeles-wildfires-2011521
Quote
State Farm, one of the biggest insurers in California, canceled hundreds of homeowners' policies last summer in Pacific Palisades—the same area which is now being ravaged by a devastating wildfire.

The move was justified by the company as an attempt to avoid "financial failure" as the frequency and severity of wildfires is growing in the Golden State, especially in at-risk zones. But as the multiple fires currently burning through Southern California threaten to cause devastating losses for residents, many will likely need to rely on their insurers to get back on their feet after the blazes are contained.

....and if that is not enough.....

There was an NFL game scheduled for today/tomorrow in LA.

It sensibly got moved to Arizona.

The stadium in Arizona is 'State Farm Stadium'

I believe there was some kind of statement that said they were 'happy to help out' with the game move.
Just not happy to insure people which would ACTUALLY help.

Re: LA Fires

Reply #12 –
Turns out State Farm made a pretty good decision....for them ::)
 

Re: LA Fires

Reply #13 –
It is absurd the media can run beat up stories from simpletons about authorities "Turning off the water!", and do so without consequence, it's nothing short of inciting a public riot.

Don't get me wrong, I have full sympathy for people losing lives and property.

But what media feck wit thinks they can sell the public a tale that 3.8M people can turn on the garden hose all at once and still have water pressure?

The media whack "influencers" for being tone deaf having posted about Island holidays during the blaze, in the mean time the same media wants to stir crap about water supplies and it is obvious they do so purely for ratings / clicks.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: LA Fires

Reply #14 –
The LA fire chief said it.
2012 HAPPENED!!!!!!!