Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

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Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

March 28, 2025, 12:52:05 pm

Yes, I know some might think, 'Oh here we go again, Baggers on his mental health high horse preaching again.' But I believe it is bloody important right here, right now... especially considering the hurt and damage caused by the ignorant and rumour/speculation mongering on certain people and clubs dumped on social media. Ill-informed comments gets on my goat due to the damage they do. And they do, do damage and certainly serve no useful purpose. Please think of the consequences of your words on victims... who are already struggling.

Just yesterday afternoon I speaking with a close mate, Bluebagger of course, and he started ranting about AFL players and drugs (and associated rumours - naming a few at our club and other club) and that these players needing to harden up, are obviously weak or stupid. And he intended to go for it on a footy forum (not ours). Because he's a good mate, I didn't hold back (my ire was up!!) and gave him a forceful education on mental illness... the reality of addictions, personal issues and so on and that are NOT willful, deliberate choices (to sabotage one's life), nor a sign of person weakness (makes my blood boil, that shallow assumption), but rather results of unique circumstances, difficult and sometimes traumatic events resulting in fair-dinkum and serious challenges. I asked my mate, again pretty forcefully to please think of the consequences of your words on victims... who are already struggling enough. And that if he can't be bothered understanding clinical reasons for addiction, anxiety disorders (a huge spectrum), depressive illnesses and the like, then shut up and focus on empathy and support for the individual rather than poorly informed and destructive comments / judgements. Then, I'm glad to say he started asking some pretty good questions... eventually, and did not make the post he intended.

I know what it is like to be actually incapable of doing my job due to a mental health trauma/issues. It's fckn real, this mental health stuff, and NEVER a statement or indication of how strong or not so strong we are.

Rant over.

Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

Reply #1 – March 28, 2025, 01:26:45 pm

Quote from: Baggers – on March 28, 2025, 12:52:05 pm

I know what it is like to be actually incapable of doing my job due to a mental health trauma/issues. It's fckn real, this mental health stuff, and NEVER a statement or indication of how strong or not so strong we are.

Not trivialising your post, but as an aside has anybody watching Rogue Heroes on SBS?

We get a little insight into how the hardest of the hard can be broken by stuff outside of their control. It's a theme repeated right through a series dedicated to the first ever SAS Regiment, these are group of possible lunatics and misfits who in a much more brutal era gave hard a whole new definition.

I didn't serve in Vietnam but I've mates who did, it's amazing what affects them, it's not at all the stuff people think, and I have to assume such issues can be as diverse in real life. I have a mate who gets triggered by someone stepping on a flower, or seeing a flower that has been trodden on like those burnt offerings in Indonesia, of all the stuff he did and saw in war it's the memory of flowers on the pavement crushed by the boots of troops or civilians that he can't deal with. It starts off with a simple question in his head, "How f#$k@n hard is it to walk around a flower?", and escalates from there! It's sort of a cry of despair at the state of the planet that he can't communicate, like a thought that if that is the best we can do what hope is there!

Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

Reply #2 – March 28, 2025, 02:01:22 pm

@ Baggers
Great Post
Sadly, the format of this place only allows me to give your post one 'like' at a time.

It's something that back in the day wasn't talked about...a bit like the related domestic violence issues.
There was a burden, on men particularly, to not display any vulnerability.
The rise of social media has placed a whole extra burden on folks of all ages.
Rumours and speculation often swirl when there is a void of information.
Something written in one place is referenced as fact in another and the whole thing just snowballs.
Now put yourself in the place of the target of those rumours and coping is a huge challenge
Players being told to stay away from social media is on the surface good advice...but it's impossible to avoid.

I do understand how folks can be dismissive of stress and mental illness if they haven't been affected by it, or touched by it through friends or family.
Footballers particularly have been held to a higher level of "toughness"
But resilience on a football field is an easy task compared to the challenges life sometimes presents.

Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

Reply #3 – March 28, 2025, 02:10:14 pm

The idea of 'mental health is something that seems to piss off AFL fans because the clubs and media use it for deflection of things they don't want to talk about.

Whether its sexual assault, drugs, drinking, fighting, stealing, breaking up with your missus, cheating with a mates missus, pulling a gun....whatever it is, it's 'mental health' each and every time.

No I'm not saying mental health cannot be a factor, but it is being used as a get out of jail free card at every opportunity to cover things up. People are wise to that and not having it.

It's a fine line and one that can be drawn wherever you want it to be.

I've said similar in regards to murder and the insanity defense.
People who are not in the right frame of mind can plead temporary insanity.
The counter argument to that is, can someone in their right frame of mind actually commit murder. Surely the act means they are not.

So it's a fine line as I said. I support harry and whoever else, but I'm against the misdirection from the afl when they constantly play the mental health card at every issue.

Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

Reply #4 – March 28, 2025, 02:30:50 pm

Great post Baggers!

Interestingly, our club put Harry's withdrawal from the Hawthorn game down to "illness" in an attempt to shield him from the likely response to a mental health absence; and we're seeing just what that can look like now.

While Harry does have an illness, it's not one that can be cured by a course of antibiotics.

Plenty of current and past Carlton players who have spoken openly about their mental health battles and Jake Edwards' story is one of several stories that's well worth reading:

The [mental health] illness reared it head a couple of years later, when Edwards had left Carlton and was training with the Western Bulldogs, hoping to be picked up in the AFL draft.

Despite promises from the club, he was overlooked, ending his career and sending him spiralling — eventually leading to an attempt to take his own life.

"I had a trigger in a relationship which led me down a four-day drug-and-alcohol-fuelled bender, and that led to an attempt on my own life one morning," he said.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-02/when-his-afl-dream-died-jake-edwards-mental-health-collapsed/11811490?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web

Yes, mental health may be used in reference to many situations involving alcohol, drugs, and poor behaviour but it's usually a mental health issue that leads to that behaviour.

Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

Reply #5 – March 28, 2025, 02:32:22 pm

We probably need to make a distinction between 'personal issues' and 'mental health' issues

With personal issues....Lose a close family member and you probably need a week or two of grieving.
If you have some sudden financial hardhip and it can unsettle a routine.
Your focus will be off, and there may be things you need to do that will take up some time.
It could even be an extended time in the case of someone with a terminal illness.

The mental health issues are more complex, and not as easily identified. Moments of clarity and coping aren't fixed. The response to those feelings can be all over the shop. You may be feeling depressed for no identifiable reason or alternatively something might trigger an episode (as LP described above).

A relationship breakdown is more a personal issue.
Something like an addiction probably sits more in the mental health area

But one can lead to another and a personal issue can also have greater impact on someone already suffering from mental health issues.

Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

Reply #6 – March 28, 2025, 02:38:00 pm

Quote from: Lods – on March 28, 2025, 02:32:22 pm

We probably need to make a distinction between 'personal issues' and 'mental health' issues

With personal issues....Lose a close family member and you probably need a week or two of grieving.
If you have some sudden financial hardhip and it can unsettle a routine.
Your focus will be off, and there may be things you need to do that will take up some time.
It could even be an extended time in the case of someone with a terminal illness.

The mental health issues are more complex, and not as easily identified. Moments of clarity and coping aren't fixed. The repsonse to those feelings can be all over the shop. You may be feeling depressed for no identifiable reason or alternatively something might trigger an episode (as LP described above).

A relationship breakdown is more a personal issue.
Something like an addiction probably sits more in the mental health area

But one can lead to another and a personal issue can also have greater impact on someone already suffering from mental health issues.

Yes, but see the Jake Edwards story that I referred to above. A relationship breakdown triggered a existing mental health condition and led to a suicide attempt.

We know that Harry has had ongoing mental health issues, thanks to his willingness to share that information with supporters, but we don't know whether whatever is behind his current situation has triggered another bout of anxiety.

Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

Reply #7 – March 28, 2025, 02:59:25 pm

Quote from: DJC – on March 28, 2025, 02:38:00 pm

We know that Harry has had ongoing mental health issues, thanks to his willingness to share that information with supporters, but we don't know whether whatever is behind his current situation has triggered another bout of anxiety.

If this stuff was so easy to deal with Harry would be in the clear, proof that it isn't so easy to deal with is that Harry studies psychology.

Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

Reply #8 – March 28, 2025, 03:42:04 pm

Quote from: kruddler – on March 28, 2025, 02:10:14 pm

The idea of 'mental health is something that seems to piss off AFL fans because the clubs and media use it for deflection of things they don't want to talk about.

Whether its sexual assault, drugs, drinking, fighting, stealing, breaking up with your missus, cheating with a mates missus, pulling a gun....whatever it is, it's 'mental health' each and every time.

No I'm not saying mental health cannot be a factor, but it is being used as a get out of jail free card at every opportunity to cover things up. People are wise to that and not having it.

It's a fine line and one that can be drawn wherever you want it to be.

I've said similar in regards to murder and the insanity defense.
People who are not in the right frame of mind can plead temporary insanity.
The counter argument to that is, can someone in their right frame of mind actually commit murder. Surely the act means they are not.

So it's a fine line as I said. I support harry and whoever else, but I'm against the misdirection from the afl when they constantly play the mental health card at every issue.

Fair points, K. But let me you assure you that most mental health professions suss out those using 'mental health' as a contrived excuse after (often after simply reading symptoms on Google) in pretty quick time. Some might think they can fake an anxiety disorder, and / or depressive illness symptoms (and other issues) but there are plenty of non-verbal indicators/tells and those boxes can be ticked off pretty quickly.

Addiction issues are pretty difficult to conceal and eventually the results of the addiction have such a severe impact on the addicts life, and those around them, that it's blatantly obvious. And eventually requires the addict to be honest with themselves and those close to them... then seek help. I vividly recall the moment I admitted to myself I had a problem, a severe problem (as many addicts do) and made an appt, through the Doc's referral, to a psychologist specializing in addiction. On my first appt, as true as I'm sitting here typing this, I looked the psychologist right in the eyes after she asked how she could help, and I said, word for word, "My life is f**ked. I have an addiction, which is ruining everything." Not an approach for everyone. She sat back and said a little awkwardly, "Okay, right, umm..." Then she started gathering info. Clean for decades now. Smartest thing I did was be honest with myself, then be committed to doing something about it. Not uncommon for anyone with mental health issues (mine - PTSD) to self-medicate... a very destructive way to deal with/avoid the issue.

And to repeat a piece of my opening missive - getting on social media and making assumptions and negative judgements about someone struggling with an addiction and/or other mental health issue(s) tells the reader that you're ignorant pr*ck content to add to the stigma.

Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

Reply #9 – March 28, 2025, 04:29:55 pm

I sincerely hope that both the public and mental health professionals are extremely careful when dealing with these cases, and start off being trustful and as benign as possible, giving people the BOD and really only letting cynicism rule down the line, and then only as a last resort. The amount of damage done to genuine cases simply based on vibes and upfront suspicions of deception would dwarf the people caught out pretending IMO

Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

Reply #10 – March 28, 2025, 06:00:16 pm

Quote from: Baggers – on March 28, 2025, 03:42:04 pm

Quote from: kruddler – on March 28, 2025, 02:10:14 pm
The idea of 'mental health is something that seems to piss off AFL fans because the clubs and media use it for deflection of things they don't want to talk about.

Whether its sexual assault, drugs, drinking, fighting, stealing, breaking up with your missus, cheating with a mates missus, pulling a gun....whatever it is, it's 'mental health' each and every time.

No I'm not saying mental health cannot be a factor, but it is being used as a get out of jail free card at every opportunity to cover things up. People are wise to that and not having it.

It's a fine line and one that can be drawn wherever you want it to be.

I've said similar in regards to murder and the insanity defense.
People who are not in the right frame of mind can plead temporary insanity.
The counter argument to that is, can someone in their right frame of mind actually commit murder. Surely the act means they are not.

So it's a fine line as I said. I support harry and whoever else, but I'm against the misdirection from the afl when they constantly play the mental health card at every issue.

Fair points, K. But let me you assure you that most mental health professions suss out those using 'mental health' as a contrived excuse after (often after simply reading symptoms on Google) in pretty quick time. Some might think they can fake an anxiety disorder, and / or depressive illness symptoms (and other issues) but there are plenty of non-verbal indicators/tells and those boxes can be ticked off pretty quickly.

Addiction issues are pretty difficult to conceal and eventually the results of the addiction have such a severe impact on the addicts life, and those around them, that it's blatantly obvious. And eventually requires the addict to be honest with themselves and those close to them... then seek help. I vividly recall the moment I admitted to myself I had a problem, a severe problem (as many addicts do) and made an appt, through the Doc's referral, to a psychologist specializing in addiction. On my first appt, as true as I'm sitting here typing this, I looked the psychologist right in the eyes after she asked how she could help, and I said, word for word, "My life is f**ked. I have an addiction, which is ruining everything." Not an approach for everyone. She sat back and said a little awkwardly, "Okay, right, umm..." Then she started gathering info. Clean for decades now. Smartest thing I did was be honest with myself, then be committed to doing something about it. Not uncommon for anyone with mental health issues (mine - PTSD) to self-medicate... a very destructive way to deal with/avoid the issue.

And to repeat a piece of my opening missive - getting on social media and making assumptions and negative judgements about someone struggling with an addiction and/or other mental health issue(s) tells the reader that you're ignorant pr*ck content to add to the stigma.

Not sure if I was clear enough or not.
My issue is not with the players.
My issue is not with the doctors.
My issue is with the 'media', marketing and brand spin doctors. They are the one who twist a potential bad problem (as listed earlier - non mental health specific) into a 'mental health issue' that flips the script on how things are viewed.
eg.....Someone likes a drink, goes out and punches on with someone, gets locked up. It might be a one off that could happen to anyone when they have 1 too many.
Now the club and media don't want this to get out and 'ruin the brand' so they say he is taking some time away for mental health. Instead of everyone calling him out for bad behaviour and being a d!ck, he now gets sympathy and the club come out of it smelling like roses.
Thats the issue.

Now, i'm not saying that is the same as someone who is a full blown alcoholic who has an addiction.

But tell me the media will distinguish between the 2.

THAT is my issue.
Its reflects badly on people like yourself, my wife and mates, who do suffer from such things.

Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

Reply #11 – March 28, 2025, 06:26:36 pm

Quote from: kruddler – on March 28, 2025, 06:00:16 pm

Quote from: Baggers – on March 28, 2025, 03:42:04 pm

Fair points, K. But let me you assure you that most mental health professions suss out those using 'mental health' as a contrived excuse after (often after simply reading symptoms on Google) in pretty quick time. Some might think they can fake an anxiety disorder, and / or depressive illness symptoms (and other issues) but there are plenty of non-verbal indicators/tells and those boxes can be ticked off pretty quickly.

Addiction issues are pretty difficult to conceal and eventually the results of the addiction have such a severe impact on the addicts life, and those around them, that it's blatantly obvious. And eventually requires the addict to be honest with themselves and those close to them... then seek help. I vividly recall the moment I admitted to myself I had a problem, a severe problem (as many addicts do) and made an appt, through the Doc's referral, to a psychologist specializing in addiction. On my first appt, as true as I'm sitting here typing this, I looked the psychologist right in the eyes after she asked how she could help, and I said, word for word, "My life is f**ked. I have an addiction, which is ruining everything." Not an approach for everyone. She sat back and said a little awkwardly, "Okay, right, umm..." Then she started gathering info. Clean for decades now. Smartest thing I did was be honest with myself, then be committed to doing something about it. Not uncommon for anyone with mental health issues (mine - PTSD) to self-medicate... a very destructive way to deal with/avoid the issue.

And to repeat a piece of my opening missive - getting on social media and making assumptions and negative judgements about someone struggling with an addiction and/or other mental health issue(s) tells the reader that you're ignorant pr*ck content to add to the stigma.

Not sure if I was clear enough or not.
My issue is not with the players.
My issue is not with the doctors.
My issue is with the 'media', marketing and brand spin doctors. They are the one who twist a potential bad problem (as listed earlier - non mental health specific) into a 'mental health issue' that flips the script on how things are viewed.
eg.....Someone likes a drink, goes out and punches on with someone, gets locked up. It might be a one off that could happen to anyone when they have 1 too many.
Now the club and media don't want this to get out and 'ruin the brand' so they say he is taking some time away for mental health. Instead of everyone calling him out for bad behaviour and being a d!ck, he now gets sympathy and the club come out of it smelling like roses.
Thats the issue.

Now, i'm not saying that is the same as someone who is a full blown alcoholic who has an addiction.

But tell me the media will distinguish between the 2.

THAT is my issue.
Its reflects badly on people like yourself, my wife and mates, who do suffer from such things.

Gotcha.

Yep, there are sections of the media, political arena and wider community, who absolutely do label/manipulate illegal acts and even thuggery into a mental health phony diagnosis/reason to escape and even excuse these behaviours. And it p155es me off too. They'll come undone in the end and it'll look even worse... but damage to legitimate mental health cases have been done. Good call, K.

Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

Reply #12 – March 28, 2025, 06:55:13 pm

IMO opinion, right or wrong, poor life choices are not mental health issues.

Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

Reply #13 – March 28, 2025, 06:58:40 pm

Quote from: Baggers – on March 28, 2025, 06:26:36 pm

Quote from: kruddler – on March 28, 2025, 06:00:16 pm

Not sure if I was clear enough or not.
My issue is not with the players.
My issue is not with the doctors.
My issue is with the 'media', marketing and brand spin doctors. They are the one who twist a potential bad problem (as listed earlier - non mental health specific) into a 'mental health issue' that flips the script on how things are viewed.
eg.....Someone likes a drink, goes out and punches on with someone, gets locked up. It might be a one off that could happen to anyone when they have 1 too many.
Now the club and media don't want this to get out and 'ruin the brand' so they say he is taking some time away for mental health. Instead of everyone calling him out for bad behaviour and being a d!ck, he now gets sympathy and the club come out of it smelling like roses.
Thats the issue.

Now, i'm not saying that is the same as someone who is a full blown alcoholic who has an addiction.

But tell me the media will distinguish between the 2.

THAT is my issue.
Its reflects badly on people like yourself, my wife and mates, who do suffer from such things.

Gotcha.

Yep, there are sections of the media, political arena and wider community, who absolutely do label/manipulate illegal acts and even thuggery into a mental health phony diagnosis/reason to escape and even excuse these behaviours. And it p155es me off too. They'll come undone in the end and it'll look even worse... but damage to legitimate mental health cases have been done. Good call, K.

You used a word there that i think is key to this. Diagnosis.

Not that there needs to be something made public, but that is the key. Who is actually diagnosed with an issue, and who is/was simply having a bad day? I guarantee a reporter does not ask what a player has been diagnosed with when they report upon 'mental health' issues.....but they are all treated the same.

Perhaps there should be some more transparency with these issues.

If a player is injured, we know if its a knee, an ankle a rib. Ultimately it doesn't really matter what it is, but we are told.
If a player has 'mental health' that could mean anything from career over to be back at training tomorrow. If we know its anxiety, depression, addiction, bi-polar......whatever, that is useful for a couple of reasons.

1. It gives us an insight into what that means in terms of a return.
2. It can create some sympathy and understanding to the player
3. It destigmatises the issue and allows the player, the club and the community a way to work through this together.

I doubt it will happen, but it will pull back the curtain on what 'mental health' actually is.....and legitimise it........and eliminate the spin doctoring.

Re: Mental Health/Illness Education, Empathy & Responsibility

Reply #14 – March 28, 2025, 06:59:47 pm

Quote from: Gointocarlton – on March 28, 2025, 06:55:13 pm

IMO opinion, right or wrong, poor life choices are not mental health issues.

Gary Lyon had 'mental health' issues when he got busted with Billy Brownless' missus.

I'm sure he felt bad.
I'm sure his whole world was tipped upside down.
To me, that is not mental health, that is consequences.