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Topic: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood (Read 16403 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #120 –
Quote from: Shakin77 – on
We had that round one,   Richmond are terrible
thats an exception though. 

Thing is because of how most of our games have played out teams know they're in with a shot so long as they stay in touching distance.   Its the worst thing about having lost that match from so far ahead.

Despite all that I've been thinking about which lever we can flick that might yield the right result without being a ridiculous change.

Captain. 

Cripps has carried us, he's not a great orator.  He is a fantastic bull in the China shop, clearance King and inspirational. 

Hes having arguably the worst season of his career after some of his best years.  No doubt he's feeling the pressure and he is guilty of trying to put the team on his back and will them across the line.   Nothing wrong with that but at his age it might be time to protect him from himself, and move the captaincy over to weitering.  Leaders can lead, but there is a sacrificial role that might actually yield the result we need and we have the captain in waiting we need.  Cripps will always be a leader of our club but we need to give him room to focus on getting himself back to his best and staying there.  Its good enough for others, might be his time.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #121 –
I think there's a general consensus, which I've now sadly come to share, that Doc's best is probably well behind him.
Costly errors, poor disposal, not really impacting.
On observation alone if you'd asked me, I would have said his game last night wasn't great, we may need to look at replacing him.
So it was kind of surprising when I was looking at the stats tonight to see this...

S Docherty v Collingwood
Disposals 27
Kicks 20
Handballs 7
Disposal efficiency 63%
Marks 9
Metres Gained ( A game high ) 671
Tackles 2
Inside 50s -6 (Best by a Carlton player)
Intercept possessions 6

The response will probably be..."that shows you the value of stats".
But it's better than his previous weeks by some margin.

Whoever was doing the match report on AFL.com must have been looking at the stats too. ;)

Quote
BEST
Collingwood:  Cameron, Schultz, Sidebottom, J.Daicos, N.Daicos, Moore, Pendlebury
Carlton: Hewett, Walsh, Docherty, De Koning

Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #122 –
Fans see an error and write off a whole performance, Doc was better this week and didn't deserve a negative spotlight.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #123 –
Quote from: pertz – on
Wow Blue Moon, tell us how you really feel next time, stop holding back!  :o
I felt a bit down before reading your post and now I'm flat as a tack!

pertz, sometimes situations give the illusion of proximity, and sometimes they give the illusion of distance. I don't think the 0-4 score line accurately reflects where we are. It's early days. Hang in there.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #124 –
Quote from: LP – on
Fans see an error and write off a whole performance, Doc was better this week and didn't deserve a negative spotlight.

He made some mistakes. He didn't go when he 'should have' perhaps (unlike when he's at his confident best) but I think once we get a pre-conception in our head it does tend to cloud our judgement as we watch.
The negative is magnified, and any positive diminished.
He may not have been as good as the stats suggest.
And often a 'howler' undoes a lot of the good work.
But he probably wasn't as bad as we've judged the effort.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #125 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
Quote from: pertz – on
Wow Blue Moon, tell us how you really feel next time, stop holding back!  :o
I felt a bit down before reading your post and now I'm flat as a tack!

pertz, sometimes situations give the illusion of proximity, and sometimes they give the illusion of distance. I don't think the 0-4 score line accurately reflects where we are. It's early days. Hang in there.


Yep.

Losses under previous coaches had a real air of 'nowhere near it'... under Vossy, it's different as evidenced by very few 'hidings', only a couple from memory. Most losses under Vossy still saw us 'in' the game for some time.

But to respond and support more accurately your comment, Pauly, so much of what is required to 'win' is there and there is a sense -- might sound a little fluffy and overly optimistic -- that it will 'click' for us and the missing pieces will evolve and arrive... then look out!

Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #126 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: LP – on
Fans see an error and write off a whole performance, Doc was better this week and didn't deserve a negative spotlight.

He made some mistakes. He didn't go when he 'should have' perhaps (unlike when he's at his confident best) but I think once we get a pre-conception in our head it does tend to cloud our judgement as we watch.
The negative is magnified, and any positive diminished.
He may not have been as good as the stats suggest.
And often a 'howler' undoes a lot of the good work.
But he probably wasn't as bad as we've judged the effort.

Acres copped plenty of criticism as well and his stats were better than docs.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #127 –
Quote from: Lods – on
Quote from: LP – on
Fans see an error and write off a whole performance, Doc was better this week and didn't deserve a negative spotlight.

He made some mistakes. He didn't go when he 'should have' perhaps (unlike when he's at his confident best) but I think once we get a pre-conception in our head it does tend to cloud our judgement as we watch.
The negative is magnified, and any positive diminished.
He may not have been as good as the stats suggest.
And often a 'howler' undoes a lot of the good work.
But he probably wasn't as bad as we've judged the effort.


Similar view here, Principal LODS.

I find myself in two minds when considering Doc's place in our side, especially when factoring in those stats. However, and more specifically, when I look at the 'metres gained' stat, I wonder if that stat takes into account a 50 metre kick that lands on an opponents chest, or a 50 metre kick and hope, or a 40 metre long but 50 metre high kick! Is the 'metres gained' stat 'effective metres gained' kick, hand ball or knock-on?

When a leader pulls out of contact, as has been highlighted in regard to Doc, it must have a negative affect on morale.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #128 –
Quote from: kruddler – on
Quote from: Lods – on


He made some mistakes. He didn't go when he 'should have' perhaps (unlike when he's at his confident best) but I think once we get a pre-conception in our head it does tend to cloud our judgement as we watch.
The negative is magnified, and any positive diminished.
He may not have been as good as the stats suggest.
And often a 'howler' undoes a lot of the good work.
But he probably wasn't as bad as we've judged the effort.

Acres copped plenty of criticism as well and his stats were better than docs.

I'm a huge admirer of Blake. Huge. But I have to ask myself how many of his kicks, shepherds and handballs are actually effective, so far this year. Stats can look great on paper but the big question is as to whether these big stats are actually effective and hurting the opposition. Same goes for Walsh and Doc at this stage.

When looking at some of Rottingwood's key playmakers on Thursday night, the greater % of their possessions were really effective and influential... ours weren't.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #129 –
Certainly a lot of those long kicks of Docherty's are speculative.
But they are long kicks, which means territory gained... and may need three or four to bring it back
Perhaps the better option would be a shorter more accurate kick.
But while a 63% accuracy is not great it was about the average for our players on the night, and the fact that there were so many kicks (20)compared to the shorter more 'accurate' kicks and handballs (7) makes that an OK result.

A lot depends on pressure too and a lot of Docherty's longer kicks were made with little pressure. So maybe with the time he has he needs to look at the shorter option rather than the kick and hope.

Pulling out of contests, especially by someone we (and his team-mates) regard so highly, is an issue. I think Doc will be embarrassed by that. Courage and Docherty are pretty much interchangeable terms.
I'm just wondering whether having missed so much football Docherty is still trying to readjust to on-field situations and the speed and intensity at that level.

There is no doubt that Docherty's best football is behind him. This may even be his last year.
There may even come a time this season when he no longer holds his place.
But I suspect what we saw (even if our eyes didn't pick it up at the time) was an improvement on previous weeks.
A little more improvement and a little better accuracy and he's still worth a spot.
 

Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #130 –
May have been Doc's best game for the year but he had an opportunity (in the last I think)  where he could have delivered a kick to Will White who was free in the pocket (on the right side for his left foot) and chose to kick to the top of the square where Charlie had to compete against 2 (again). I can't fault Doc's effort but he's making way too many mistakes

Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #131 –
I think part of the issue is we're judging these players by what we know they're capable of....and like many of their team-mates, even including Cripps, they are well off that pace.

With so many players off the pace at the one time there is greater pressure on everyone and with pressure comes a lapse in judgement and a breakdown in skills. It may just need the inclusion of a couple of players (Harry. Elijah etc ) and a little of that pressure is transferred and everyone looks a little better.

Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #132 –
Quote from: rocky – on
May have been Doc's best game for the year but he had an opportunity (in the last I think)  where he could have delivered a kick to Will White who was free in the pocket (on the right side for his left foot) and chose to kick to the top of the square where Charlie had to compete against 2 (again). I can't fault Doc's effort but he's making way too many mistakes

Yep, Mr Balboa. Pretty symptomatic of too many of our boys, poor choices, kicking it on top of forward's heads and ordinary disposal. That one to Will White was a howler and valuable 6pts that went begging... like a number of kicks into our forward line - Moore had a picnic.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #133 –
Quote from: Lods – on
I think part of the issue is we're judging these players by what we know they're capable of....and like many of their team-mates, even including Cripps, they are well off that pace.

With so many players off the pace at the one time there is greater pressure on everyone and with pressure comes a lapse in judgement and a breakdown in skills. It may just need the inclusion of a couple of players (Harry. Elijah etc ) and a little of that pressure is transferred and everyone looks a little better.



Agree, but let's not make excuses for some of them.
Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17

Re: AFL Rd 4 2025 Post Game Prognostications Carlton vs Collingwood

Reply #134 –
Quote from: Baggers – on
Quote from: Lods – on
I think part of the issue is we're judging these players by what we know they're capable of....and like many of their team-mates, even including Cripps, they are well off that pace.

With so many players off the pace at the one time there is greater pressure on everyone and with pressure comes a lapse in judgement and a breakdown in skills. It may just need the inclusion of a couple of players (Harry. Elijah etc ) and a little of that pressure is transferred and everyone looks a little better.



Agree, but let's not make excuses for some of them.

Certainly, There are some things that are non-negotiables...like effort, and in case where a player has time-judgement.

But a blanket opinion that concentrates exclusively on the good or the bad is probably not valid either.
We need to look at each players performance in total and weigh up their value and contribution.